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To: VaBthang4; NZerFromHK; yonif; weegie; blam; counterpunch; ItsonlikeDonkeyKong; Atlantic Friend; ...
But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure.

A civilization's eschatology is fascinating. Civilizations do end. As far as I've seen, most have a religious or mystical explanation for where they arose and where they are going. Often the story ends with their own destruction. But do the stories coincide with the eventualities? One would suspect that in many cases, only hindsight is capable of melding story with reality.

Ours is no exception: we have a variety of Judeo-Christian eschatologies. And of course it's impossible to get Christians to agree on the meanings of Daniel and Revelations, and the other relevant portions of the Bible that discuss the end. Moreover, Jews have their own range of ideas about how it will all end.

I'm somewhere between VaBthang4 and a different point from where NZerFromHK is heading in my point of view. I think the end always comes as a surprise. The cultural epicenter is based on simple components that simply don't allow a civilization to grasp why its downfall is imminent. This downfall can come from an intellectual inability to extend the civilization beyond a self-destructive phase, or its seeds can be either in environmental changes or threats from outside. I would say that Rome experienced all three.

I don't believe we are at the end, especially not in America. Ronald Reagan said that the best years were ahead, and I think he is right! And I think Israel is nowhere near collapse either. That puts our modern Judeo-Christian civilization on unsteady but strong footing.

What are the immediate dangers besides loss of morals and atheism? (I.e. rejecting the tenets of our civilization altogether.) I think those problems have indeed put us at an intellectual crossroads, but they don't necessarily lead to our downfall. Our story is still being told. We're still dynamic, alive, and interested in living. We still want to do what is right, for the most part. Besides, isn't it possible to live in a cultural millieu where the strongly religious and the strongly secular can coexist? I think it can. In fact, I think we have to achieve that goal, and I think it is one that our founding fathers believed was central to the health of our own republic.

If Europe suffers further collapse, it could lead to conflict between western Europeans and the Coalition. This conflict could destroy us, but I think it is not likely to occur. When things get worse, the Franco-German axis will undergo a massive revision as its own peoples realize there has been a mistake. America and Britain will be forgiving at that point. In many ways, I am addressing internal threats of moral lack of clarity and weak policies on immigration. We're finding across the northern hemisphere that if people were created equally, their cultures were not. Under those circumstances we must act to preserve English, French, German, and American "culture." I include the other countries in Europe and free Asia as well.

These issues lead to further economic problems, especially in Europe. But western European countries may have their own Margaret Thatchers just waiting to step forward. I am not too pessimistic about this. I'm an optimist, in fact.

We face major threats from outside, including China and those who would bring a third Caliphate. I think the key to those threats is in western Europe's handling of its own internal crisis. If it can recenter itself economically, Europe won't be tempted to sell out western civilization to the Chinese and continue selling out to the moslems. If it does, then we will all face a deeper crisis. But there, too, I think Americans can and would defend western civilization again.

By all means, keep consulting your religious eschatologies. But I think the right way to conduct our lives is to live the best we can according to the morals we gain from our civilization's underpinnings, and do our best to protect the future for the next generation.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
--- Mark 13:32

50 posted on 06/13/2004 7:32:33 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
The word is quite clear as to the end times for the entire planet. As to individual societies, it gets into some and completely ignores others.

The Bible seems to paint in broad strokes concerning the end of this age. But the strokes are telling in that they discuss the things that are 'important'[relative] from God's perspective and not our own.

Reality is that the World is opposed to truth. Anybody standing for it will be opposed to one degree or another. If you have an entire nation attempting to stand for truth then it to will be opposed...and if the antithetical perspective is desperate enough, it will oppose it violently/militarily.

As to America's impact on end time events. The Word mentions none. This for me is quite profound. Adding that to the reality that Europe itself seems to impose it's will on Israel and the end of the math seems quite clear.
58 posted on 06/14/2004 10:48:37 AM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
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