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UKIP set to grab 20% in Euro poll (REJECTING THE EU UPDATE)
The Sunday Times ^
| June 13, 2004
| David Cracknell and David Smith
Posted on 06/13/2004 3:41:09 AM PDT by MadIvan
click here to read article
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To: Desdemona
That's a little backwards isn't it. No, there's a sense of resentment in Ireland toward Great Britain. One would think they'd be over it by now, but remember Ireland was neutral in WWII and on Germany's side in WWI. And the Franco-German alliance is only all too happy to agree: British imperial power must be restrained.
I don't see this attitude as positive for the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish. But then again, I think they won their wars for independence here in America.
21
posted on
06/13/2004 4:48:52 AM PDT
by
risk
To: risk
The Irish don't get over grudges that easily. Now, I understand.
To: Desdemona
They used to have Catholicism in common with France. There is none of that now. The rest of Great Britain will eventually find out that having spats with their family was preferable to the marxist rule of their EU taskmasters. (But many of them think communism is harmless when you remove the murdering dictators... who always seem to crop up from "nowhere.")
23
posted on
06/13/2004 4:54:44 AM PDT
by
risk
To: risk
Ireland was on The German side in WW1?!?!?!
Given that it was still British at the time and sent over a hundred thousands of soldiers to fight under the Union Jack then this is possibly the most ill informed post I have seen here yet
24
posted on
06/13/2004 5:05:42 AM PDT
by
weegie
To: weegie
Ireland was on The German side in WW1?!?!?!Given that it was still British at the time and sent over a hundred thousands of soldiers to fight under the Union Jack then this is possibly the most ill informed post I have seen here yet
Actually, ambiguous. The Ulster Protestants of course were the most British of the British. It is my understanding that they have always accounted for a preponderance of British army officers in the way that Dixie does in our army. As for the South, the British in WW1 never dared impose conscription on Ireland.
To: MadIvan
Twenty percent for the UKIP would be a great result.
It may well have far reaching effects on the European politics in general. The 17-18th June the leaders of the EU nations are convening to try and get an agreement on the European "Constitution".
With Blair already having promised a referendum, and a dismal result for Labour and other eu-philes in the EU elections, even the eurocrats will find it impossible to find a compromise ("weasel wording") that would allow Blair to win a referendum.
If Britain is seen to say no, that will add increased impetus to skeptics in other countries. Denmark will have a referendum and they will most likely vote a resounding no. Also, the Dutch are going to have referendum and it is not at all certain that they will accept a further devolution of powers to the EU. There are other countries as well (Poland, the Czechs come to mind) where a referendum would result in no.
So, as I see it the eucrates have two possibilities; either scrap the constitution, but that would lead to increased call for a repeal of the acquis communitaire (ie more power to the nations), or they try to force through a constitution against the will of the peoples in many EU nations. That will lead to a political crisis, which may end up with a core EU, probably consisting of France, Germany, Belgium, and maybe Luxembourg and Italy. The rest of the countries will be loosely associated in a some kind of looser connection like Norway and Switzerland are now.
I also hope this will help the eu-skeptics in the Tory party to gain the upper hand - and to reintroduce free market thinking and belief in Britain in the Tory party.
No more "Heaths" or "Majors", please.
ScaniaBoy
26
posted on
06/13/2004 6:39:19 AM PDT
by
ScaniaBoy
(Part of the Right Wing Research & Attack Machine)
To: Sam the Sham
Not ambiguous at all. The idea that the Irish "fought on the German side" is patent nonsense.
Ireland was at the time part of Britain. It sent representatives to the London Parliament. Conscription was not imposed in either the north or south.
In WWII when The Republic was neutral the Brits still did not impose conscription on Northern Ireland (Ulster). Interestingly 5 out of the 6 Victoria Crosses awarded to Irishmen in that war were to volunteers from the Irish Republic.
27
posted on
06/13/2004 6:48:03 AM PDT
by
weegie
To: weegie
I love this site. I learn so much here that I can never learn by clicking through the net..
28
posted on
06/13/2004 7:48:29 AM PDT
by
FreeManWhoCan
((!Kerry es una CHANQLETA! The kind that goes between the big stinky toe!))
To: FreeManWhoCan; MadIvan
Me too. This is fascinating.
MI, thanks for the ping.
29
posted on
06/13/2004 7:55:38 AM PDT
by
Judith Anne
("The convictions that shaped the president began to shape the times..." President G.W. Bush)
To: Carcharodon
I wouldn't be so sure... because there were no local authority elections here on Thursday, it's difficult to judge, but a lot of Scots are out for revenge after the EU fisheries policy, Not to mention the UKIPs promise to reform Holyrood.
To: MadIvan
There already is and with the promise to reform Holyrood, i think (and hope) that the UKIP will do well up here.
As for the SNP, they're going to lose most of their seats next election. They aren't trusted, they are no longer liked and the debacle in Holyrood has disgusted almost everyone North of the border.
To: MadIvan
Ivan forgive me for having to ask but I have had a difficult time discerning exactly what this all means to Conservatives.
What is the big pictures here?
Have 'Conservatives' [I don't know the party affiliations] taken power?
Is everything basically the same with some small shifts?
What's really going on here?
32
posted on
06/13/2004 9:26:39 AM PDT
by
VaBthang4
("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
To: MadIvan
"
...we are a 3 party system (Labour, Tories, Lib Dems). I see no particular harm in this. "
I do.
It is out of balance. They need a '[true]Christian/Conservative Right'. Labour [=US Democrats] and Liberals [=Howard Dean/Al Gore democrats] are still both Liberals one is just further left than the other.
33
posted on
06/13/2004 9:31:37 AM PDT
by
VaBthang4
("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
To: MadIvan
I've never completely understood the structure of the U.K. The best I can tell, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England are something equivalent to our various US states, but every now and then something comes up that indicates more autonomy.
I don't get it.
34
posted on
06/13/2004 9:39:43 AM PDT
by
Dog Gone
To: Dog Gone
I've never completely understood the structure of the U.K. The best I can tell, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England are something equivalent to our various US states, but every now and then something comes up that indicates more autonomy.That probably is the best way to describe it. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as countries form the United Kingdom of Great Britain [England, Wales and Scotland] and Northern Ireland. So the four countries form the nation state. England is the largest, with about 51 million people, then Scotland, with around 5 million people. Wales has about 3 million people, and Northern Ireland has about 1.5 million people.
Only three of the countries have their own legislatures; Scotland has the Scottish Parliament, Wales has the National Assembly for Wales, and Northern Ireland has the Northern Ireland Assembly (currently suspended due to the political problems their). The equivalent to a Governor in the United States is the "First Minister". The United Kingdom Parliament in Westminster, London, which Tony Blair speaks at Question Time every week in the House of Commons, is equivalent to the Congress. Because England does not have its own legislature or First Minister, matters for England are handled by the UK parliament.
To: VaBthang4
It means several things...the Conservative Party has recovered substantially. Think of it in these terms - if you had a congressional midterm election and most of the states went Republican rather than Democrat. That's not a precise comparison, but similar in implications for the ruling party.
At the same time, the UKIP did well. Which means that the Conservatives could have done even better if they found some way to appeal to the same audience. In any event, this is a country where approximately half the votes went to conservative parties - this is a large change from the last couple of general elections where Labour won.
Regards, Ivan
36
posted on
06/13/2004 11:26:54 AM PDT
by
MadIvan
(Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
To: gary_b_UK
Thank you for that explanation. I sincerely appreciate it.
37
posted on
06/13/2004 11:56:12 AM PDT
by
Dog Gone
To: risk
As far as I can recall, the Irish rejected the reformulated Treaty of Nice a few years back. Of course, the inveterately corrupt and undemocratic barons who run the place just couldn't take no for an answer.
If they do ever accede to joining the Euro and ditching the Dollar, than I don't think it will ever be because of a genuine shift in public opinion. Rather, it will be because they were not given a genuine alternative.
To: weegie
Thanks for the correction. If I had looked at a couple of links,
Home Rule and Ireland, and
WWI and Ireland (BBC) before posting, I wouldn't have been so ignorant! I must have taken someone's comments about the 1916 Easter Rising out of context. There was an anti-war sentiment, however (see
Soldiers return at the BBC site).
39
posted on
06/13/2004 2:27:08 PM PDT
by
risk
To: weegie; risk
The Scottish people are very well aware of the pro - Europe stance of the SNP. The Scottish people are generally much more pro EU than the English
Frankly that statement is scary, but it fits a historically dominant Scottish idea (but dormant in the days of the Empire) that it felt more in soldarity with france than England. Now isn't it interesting that the descendents of Scottish migrants to America today are the most strident anti-frogs? (most Americans have tints of Scottish ancestry one way or another, but it was the South with particularly strong Scottish ties)
But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure. I can't figure out how today's relativist, pacifist, and wimpy socialist Euros will come out and support someone in which the Bible says will trust in nothing but only in materials and military prowness?
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