Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

'Widow maker' Lav3 in army budget blowout
National Business Review ^ | June 10, 2004 | Nick Bryant

Posted on 06/10/2004 4:45:00 PM PDT by Vetvoice

The controversial Lav3 light armoured vehicle is understood to have caused a multimillion-dollar army budget blowout, while pictures fresh from the battlefields of Iraq graphically expose the vehicle's shortcomings.

Note: This story is accompanied by extensive imagery of the Lav3 suffering massive damage under combat conditions. Those photographs are available in the print edition.

Defence sources told The National Business Review the army had sought nearly $40 million extra funding for the Lav3s, a highly sensitive request given the controversial nature of the vehicles' purchase.

The Lav3s, which began service late last year, cost nearly $700 million.

The heated debate over wheels or tracks aside, the 105 Lav3s bought by the government is nearly twice the number of vehicles originally considered necessary in a single purchase.

Army spokesman Ric Cullinane and Ministry of Defence PR man Warren Inkster said they didn't know of the extra funding request.

But NBR understands there is a Lav3 funding paper trail between the army, the Chief of Defence Force Air Marshall Bruce Ferguson, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

Official Information Act requests have been lodged with those parties and Defence Minister Mark Burton seeking all correspondence on the matter.

National Party defence spokesman Simon Power has also submitted a series of written questions on the matter to the minister.

Meanwhile, soldiers in a US Army "Stryker" unit have sent alarming photos of their hapless Lav3s out of Iraq.

The troops are describing the Lav3 as a "widow maker," according to US military analyst Lonnie Shoultz.

The images show the lumbering eight-wheeled vehicles stuck in the mud and in ditches.

New Zealand First defence spokesman Ron Mark said he'd heard stories from New Zealand Army soldiers of the Lav3s getting stuck in the mud during training in Waiouru, then ironically being towed out by the M113 armoured personnel carriers the army chose not to refurbish. The Australian Army chose to spruce up its M113s.

More seriously, the pictures show the Lav3 burning like a roman candle after being struck by rocket-propelled grenades (RPG) and driving over land mines.

Shortly after deployment in Iraq the Lav3 was revealed to be too thin-skinned to survive an RPG or mortar attack.

It has since been fitted with a heavy slatted cage, designed to take the initial brunt of an RPG or mortar explosion.

But this has proved futile, with US troops reporting Lav3s being routinely "lit up" by explosives.

That aside, the cages have made the Lav3 too wide to cross many Iraqi bridges, too big to fit into a C130 Hercules --­ the plane they were designed to be transported in --­ and about 2300 kg heavier, which considerably decreases their manoeuvrability.

As for landmines, the photos show the Lav3 failing there too.

The Lav3 was designed to be capable of driving away from a landmine explosion ­ which Mr Burton has always maintained was a big advantage of the vehicle.

But the image on page 1 [print edition] shows the "tie rod" on one of the wheels has blown clean away from the undercarriage (inside the blue ring on the photo).

Even without the raging inferno, defence sources said, the vehicle was "not going anywhere on its own."

11-Jun-2004


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: armor; army; laviii; newzealand; stryker; wheeledarmor
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-92 next last

41 posted on 06/10/2004 7:17:55 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: M1Tanker

ping


42 posted on 06/10/2004 7:24:44 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: EternalVigilance; Steel Wolf

The 101st ABN was not impressed. Lots of streets in Mosul Strykers can't get down.


43 posted on 06/10/2004 7:28:53 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

You do a great job when you stick to facts. When you start dishing up unsubstaniated rumors, one begins to wonder when you will be fitted for your tin-foil hat.

Have you actually talked to a live soldier, NCO, or officer from a Stryker unit? I have. Many, including a number who are currently in combat. I have also talked to the technical folks who have examined in great detail each combat engagment resulting in damage to a Stryker vehicle. Their accounts bear no resemblence to the so called rumors that you report. And, the article you posted is a blatant hit piece without the slighest connection to reality.


44 posted on 06/10/2004 7:31:52 PM PDT by centurion316 (Infantry, Queen of Battle)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4; VaBthang4
Rumor has it that there has been more than one combat refusal to go out the gate in the Stryker.

"Rumor has it" that Bush was behind 9/11, too.

Rumors are free, and often worth every penny.

45 posted on 06/10/2004 7:31:58 PM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
Ridden in the back a few time at NTC and Lewis. Not a bad ride, all in all. The drivers seem to love it (power-steering and automatic).

No a/c, however. (bummer)

46 posted on 06/10/2004 7:33:22 PM PDT by Jonah Hex (Go with God, President Reagan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
The only biggy complaint I have read concerning combat in Afganistan..was the ident of CAS.
Jets arrrived to late to the contacts time evolution.
Bad guys slinked off.
When A-10's where tasked...many happy returns allround.

Tracks,Lav-III's..Strykers.
Bodge them together...they can get it done..and use each other to get out of trouble.
Having CAS..reliable ..call now/watch CAS,

Thats the key to these light movers being strategic.

47 posted on 06/10/2004 7:45:25 PM PDT by Light Speed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah; centurion316
My source for that rumor was pinged to this thread. It is a rumor, and identified as such. Time will tell if it's BS or not.
48 posted on 06/10/2004 7:48:53 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: centurion316
And, the article you posted is a blatant hit piece without the slighest connection to reality.

Which article would that be?

49 posted on 06/10/2004 7:50:33 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: centurion316

Ping me to an account of how the Remote Weapons System / .50 cal successfully engaged and destroyed an RPG gunner from a moving Stryker.


50 posted on 06/10/2004 7:56:20 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: VaBthang4

If the Stryker is so great, why did the Army stick it up in the relatively peaceful north? Why is it the only pictures of the Stryker off of paved roads usually show them stuck?


51 posted on 06/10/2004 8:28:26 PM PDT by Tailback
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: VaBthang4
From what I understand, the Stryker has like all weapon systems fielded, had to have some small kinks worked out. The Soldiers had to get used to employing it properly and get a feel for what it can and cannot do. That's funny, I don't recall ever reading about soldiers trying to work the "kinks" out of the M1 Abrams.
52 posted on 06/10/2004 8:32:15 PM PDT by Tailback
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Jonah Hex
Just try to stay out of deep sand and mud.

So in other words it's useless as a combat vehicle? Maybe you need to read up on why the Russian T-34 was so successful in the snow and mud compared to the German Tiger.
53 posted on 06/10/2004 8:35:45 PM PDT by Tailback
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

"Rumor has it that there has been more than one combat refusal to go out the gate in the Stryker."

I've heard that too. In various forms with the most common being, "I would rather walk than get cooked in the back of a Stryker."


54 posted on 06/10/2004 8:38:31 PM PDT by B4Ranch ( GET READY!!...........http://www.ready.gov/get_a_kit.html)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Tailback
"I don't recall ever reading about soldiers trying to work the "kinks" out of the M1 Abrams."

You're correct. Forgive me. The Abrams had a seemless transition from the drawing board to the battlefield. Thanks alot for the blinding input. :o)

55 posted on 06/10/2004 9:03:43 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: VaBthang4

Maybe you'd like to enlighten us with some of your knowledge? Other than problems with the air filters in the first gulf war I'm not aware of any serious problems with the Abrams after it was put into production. Maybe the Stryker shouldn't have been put into full production until the "kinks" had been worked out? Of course, when a new administration and secretary of defense are breathing down your neck, congress is demanding side by side testing versus the MTVL, and GDLS is offering millions in stock options, things do tend to get approved quickly. BTW since you seem to be so well informed, has GDLS ever fixed that unfortunate recoil problem with the MGS Stryker? I'm sure a couple of tens of millions more dollars will have it nearly up to the level of the M8 in no time.


56 posted on 06/10/2004 9:25:36 PM PDT by Tailback
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Tailback

57 posted on 06/10/2004 9:26:20 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
....Lav3s getting stuck in the mud during training in Waiouru, then ironically being towed out by the M113 armoured personnel carriers....

Wherer the rubber meets the road.

58 posted on 06/10/2004 9:44:55 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: VaBthang4

I have read the posted article, the original article, and previous articles by Lonnie Shoultz, He obviously is against the LAV/Stryker and is not being objective, in addition a lot of the points he raised I suspect are taken out of context or false. In essence I believe the article to be bollocks.


59 posted on 06/10/2004 10:32:18 PM PDT by KiaKaha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
There are no LAV III's in US service>>>>>>>>>>>>

But the Stryker burns equally well. U.S. has not committed the Stryker to areas of heavy combat.

60 posted on 06/11/2004 1:30:03 AM PDT by Lion Den Dan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-92 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson