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Victims were on ALL sides which is the way war usually happens and the only point I was trying to make.

Thanks for your thoughtful response; I don't disagree. I'm just worried that this trend toward Germans defining themselves as a whole as victims too closely paralleled the run-up to WWII, where Hitler created the same feeling of victimhood. The powers that be in the EU keep talking about "the end of history," and how conflict and tyranny in Europe have become impossible...but I think they're being dangerously naiive.

The fact is that it's only been a few generations since Germany started two world wars (and Prussia was an aggressor before that). Now, the bureaucratic wranglings in the EU by France and Germany sometimes seem to be geared toward their domination of Europe by political rather than military means. And this attempt at political domination is accompanied by some of the same rhetoric that was used to justify Germany's invasions in the run-up to WWII. It's unsettling, to say the least.

Well, I understand how you came to your conclusion however I view it a little different. After the war Germany was changed in a degree that does not allow for expansionism if I might call it that.

For one, the German Constitution does not allow for it (No German Soldier is allowed to set foot in another country during times of war.) and only recently amended to allow for deployments supporting NATO (Which is why Germany has a significant amount of troops in Afghanistan).

The other point is that from the time you are in elementary school over there it is drilled into the heads of students that Germany is bad, being german is bad -because of WWII, being proud of once nation is not good and leads to fascism. Unbelievably to me they have even done away with the German Nation anthem before a internation soccer match and substituted with some stupid song that was sung in english. Go figure...

Pacifism rules the land. That was one of the reasons why Schroeder got overwhelming support that won him the election and so many people dislike Reagan and Bush. Both are seen as people that don't shy away from war which is seen as less then a last resort. In other words, from a war perspective they have swung WAY in the other direction.

You are right that they are being dangerously naiive in thinking tryanny has come to an end. They simply can not IMAGINE that this could happen. However as a realist it's not inconceivable.

I don't see the political domination that you speak of since I don't think Schroeder is worth a penny. In my opinion he is a lackey of Chiraq's and does whatever makes the French happy. The Germans as a people are very much against the current goverment and the last elections prove that beyond a doubt. The ruling party has been defeated soundly in every single election since Schroeder got reelected.

What worries me is the same tendency I am seeing in the American press to worship at the altar of Michael Moore and to look to him as the man that defines what the U.S. is. Because believe it or not Michael Moore, because of him being American, he is viewed as the definate source of what America is like. Now, THAT scares me...

Because the hard core Islamic forces want all of us dead. As long as we don't subscribe to their kind of justice.