"We said to them [the commanders]: 'We are going to lose people if we don't go back on offensive ops'. So we got the word," Marine Major Pete Farnun told The Associated Press."
And that quote tells me that A. military commanders were making the decisions, and B. if Bremer "ordered" the cessation of offensive operations, he was overruled by Maj Farnun's commanders.
With regard to some of your other comments, you said..."Rumsfeld’s denial of the accusation that the White House was “calling the shots” seems blanket enough for it to apply to the decision to halt the attack. But it doesn’t speak to Rumsfeld’s involvement." Please reread the following quote from Rumsfeld...
"The Marines on the ground are the ones that are making those judgments, and thus far they’ve calculated that it’s in our interest to do it the way they’re doing it and to have these discussions with the Sunni tribal leaders."
I think Rumsfeld is pretty clear about who is making the decisions. He certainly isn't a Marine on the ground.
You also said..."Kimmitt’s quote is evidence that Centcom supports the ceasefire, but his comments about Marine commanders are too vague to draw the same conclusion about them." Again, please reread his quote...
"...the Marines still believe that the talks have promise. They are still looking for a political, peaceful solution. None of the Marines, especially the commanders, are anxious about having to have their Marines cross the line of departure and go on an offensive."
I don't think that's even remotely vague.
Finally, you state..."Mattis’s quote is the first indication that I’ve seen of any Marine buy in to anything other than a full assault." Considering MGen Mattis is the Commander of the 1 Marine Division, I'd say he's not just "any Marine", and I'd say his statement gives a good indication of the extent of the buy-in by the Marine Corps.
Rokke - I’m swamped today, but I can respond to you this evening.
When the Fallujah Brigade was created, I wasn’t upset at all. I recognized it immediately as a Marine maneuver, the kind ingenious thing a good general does when his options are limited, not wanting to pick at a defenseless town for months, not wanting to demoralize his men and tie up his resources. I posted that day that I though General Conway just said “F this”, prematurely pushed out the unit they were training for after victory there and said, “we’re out of here!”
I couldn’t prove it though, until I saw the Fox New interview, recorded and transcribed it. Now we have 7 of the largest print media across the political spectrum reporting the same thing about who ordered the ceasefire, and no contrary reports of anyone saying they have it wrong.
- USA Today 5/1 “Mr. Bremer in turn sort ‘a put in the order to hold back.”
- BBC 4/11 “Paul Bremer, said the ceasefire came at the request of members of the Iraqi Governing Council”
- National Review 4/12 “Bremer ordered the suspension of offensive operations by the Marines in-and-around Fallujah.”
- AP 4/10 “Marines agreed only grudgingly to a halt in fighting.”
- NYT 4/9 “U.S. officials said the pause was ordered by L. Paul Bremer”
- LA Times 4/29 “Bremer… and …Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, have at least once ordered the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force to postpone the scheduled attack, with the approval of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, defense officials said.”
- Washington Times 4/15 “council members Friday in scolding Mr. Bremer…The protests resulted in orders to end the Marine assault…Kind of hard to imagine what Gen. Sanchez was thinking when he ordered the Marines to cease fire”
Although virtually all those statements are unsourced, there's no reason not to believe them without claims to the contrary. Therefore, the evidence is overwhelming that Marines did not choose to end offensive operations, they were ordered to do so.
We’re then left with the questions of 1) We’re they allowed to dispatch the ceasefire, and 2) Did they ever buy into the ceasefire rather than just comply with the order for it.
As I understand, the only evidence that they could dispense with the ceasefire was the April 9th AP quote, "We said to them [the commanders]: 'We are going to lose people if we don't go back on offensive ops'. So we got the word," Marine Major Pete Farnun " But the offensive he’s speaking of is explained in the previous sentence as offensive operations to prevent attacks, not major offensive operations. "Marines agreed only grudgingly to a halt in fighting. After initially being ordered to cease all offensive operations, they quickly demanded and received permission to launch assaults to prevent attacks if needed." This does not mean that local “commanders” overruled Bremer orders, only that the Major does not speak to Bremer directly, and that Bremer/Sanchez did not order ridiculously restrictive and suicidal ceasefire conditions.
There’s no reason that I’m aware of to believe that the Marines were given the authority to resume offensive operations. They continued with preventative assaults, such as the AC130 attack on an ammunition dump, and sending snipers in to take out a a mortar position spotted at a train station – who got pinned down and had to be extracted out by bradleys. The mortars were eventually hit with AC, which I suspected they were prohibited from using in the beginning. Assuming that’s the case, that’s the kind of political BS that sends good commanders looking to get his men the hell out.
The quote you posted by Rumsfeld saying that the Marines were “making those judgments” is relating to the Fallujah Brigade which we all agree is of the Marines choosing. It’s not speaking to the prohibition of major offensive operations. The statement was on the day of the FB announcement. Chris Mathews begain that interview with“ "Tonight, an exclusive interview with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld at the Pentagon. And as Marines try to negotiate a pull-back in Fallujah…" In the sentence before the one you quoted, Rumsfeld’s speaking of “a conclave of some 50 to 80 tribal sheiks and former Iraq military people” which eventually became known as the FB.
The statement by General Mattis that you posted from the WP is presented much differently on GlobalSecurity.org. In the WP it's, " the latest approaches to dealing with Fallujah and Najaf represent [snip]… This is the way we want to do it," Mattis said. "We didn't come here to fight."
But GlobalSecurity.org article reports that the Fallujah plan (as of 4/26) was to begin joint patrols and heavy weapons. I suspect that was canceled because it would have resulted in “major offensive operations”. Mattis’s “This is the way we want to do it” follows the description of half a billion in rebuilding projects, and is probably the more accurate context given the following line of, “We didn’t come here to fight”. That would make no sense in the Fallujahn context.
So, in light of the LA times report that Sanchez and Rumsfeld ordered I MEF to postpone scheduled attacks, and without specific claims that I MEF had the authority to resume major offensive operations, I don’t see a reason to doubt the story.
Finally there’s the question of did the Marines buy into the ceasefire of just comply grudgingly. The AP report says grudgingly and only under the defensive assault conditions. There’s the LA Times report that planned assaults were delayed from Centcom and Rubsfeld. Even gandalftb with contacts in Fallujah guesses the order was taken with a “grumble grumble”. The best evidence to contradict thisis Kimmutt's statement
" "...the Marines still believe that the talks have promise. They are still looking for a political, peaceful solution. None of the Marines, especially the commanders, are anxious about having to have their Marines cross the line of departure and go on an offensive." "Fist Kimmit says this in defense of an insinuation that the Marines are braking the ceasefire. And he doesn’t say the Marines don’t want to complete the attack, just aren’t anxious if talks have promise. But the next day they announced the Fallujah Brigade solution.
I don’t know about this last one. In light of the other reports above, it sounds like the Marines were just ready to wash their hand of the BS by then, scheduled offenses and joint reinforced patrols that never happened or were reportedly disallowed… I wouldn’t be anxious in that political environment either.
It’s late. Hope I explained this well. Would like to hear your thoughts… Regards.