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Cross in Seal Worth a Fight?(L.A. CA- ACLU Threats)
Los Angeles Daily News ^ | 5/31/04 | Troy Anderson-Staff Writer

Posted on 05/31/2004 6:24:25 PM PDT by Mark

Los Angeles Daily News

Cross in seal worth a fight? County supervisors to vote

By Troy Anderson Staff Writer

A threat by the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California to sue Los Angeles County government unless it removes a cross from the official county seal is expected to generate heated debate Tuesday when the Board of Supervisors votes on whether to fight the demand.

Supervisors Michael D. Antonovich and Don Knabe say they want to defend the county against what they called frivolous litigation that they fear could cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. The three other supervisors have not yet taken public positions.

"I hope all my colleagues have the same sense of outrage I do," said Knabe, the board chairman. "In light of everything else going on in this county and state -- from budget issues to homeland security to murders in our jails -- for the ACLU to do this is a waste of time and resources."

Antonovich called the lawsuit a threat to "desecrate the county seal."

The action is "Orwellian, out-of-control political correctness that has no legal basis," he added. "Next the ACLU will want to eliminate the crosses and Stars of David in our nation's military cemeteries."

Adopted in March 1957, the county seal was designed by the late county Supervisor Kenneth Hahn, father of the current Los Angeles mayor, James Hahn.

The cross represents the historical influence of the missions in California, officials said, and is in a panel along two stars above a depiction of the Hollywood Bowl. The panel is one of six around the seal's main figure, Pomona, a Roman goddess of fruits and trees, representing the region's agriculture.

While county officials call the cross a reflection of regional history, the ACLU maintains it is an "impermissible endorsement of Christianity" and violates the First Amendment requirement for separation of church and state.

"This is not open to debate among reasonable jurists," ACLU attorney Ben Wizner said. "This is a closed question, and it's not even a close call."

If the supervisors vote to fight the potential lawsuit, legal experts say the case may go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

In similar cases in Stow, Ohio; Zion, Ill.; and Bernalillo County, N.M., federal courts found that crosses on government seals violated the First Amendment rule. But in a case in Austin, Texas, a federal court found the cross on the city seal was part of the historical legacy of the city.

Douglas W. Kmiec, chairman and professor of constitutional law at the Pepperdine University School of Law, said crosses on the seals in Stow, Zion and Bernalillo County were part of an overwhelming amount of religious imagery. But on the Austin city seal, the cross is among secular symbols.

"I would argue there is a strong overlap in the thinking in that (Austin) case and the county seal of Los Angeles because of the historical significance," Kmiec said. "In all fairness to the ACLU, the U.S. Supreme Court in all likelihood would approve of what the county of Los Angeles has done."

The ACLU threat comes as the U.S. Supreme Court is debating whether to overturn a recent 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that it is unconstitutional for children in public schools to recite the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. The opinion could be released next month.

Kmiec said the ACLU's tactical strategy may be to pressure county supervisors into agreeing to remove the cross before the U.S. Supreme Court releases its opinion in the pledge case.

"I hope the county (supervisors are) sophisticated enough to know the issue is under debate, and they should not make any impulsive decisions to eliminate a symbol that does not offend the Constitution," Kmiec said.

In March 2003, the three Democrats on the Board of Supervisors rejected a motion by Antonovich to direct county lawyers to file a brief in support of keeping "under God" in the pledge.

So far, it's unclear if Tuesday's motion will get the three votes it needs to pass.

Glenda Wina, spokeswoman for Supervisor Yvonne Braithwaite Burke, said the supervisor is "a Christian, of course, and has nothing against removing the cross in principle, but there are other aspects to consider.

Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, who was on a University of Southern California trip for a land-use seminar in Australia last week, has not taken a position.

"If this (is) offensive and is not something that can be defended in court, then we need to move forward and start correcting it," Supervisor Gloria Molina told KTTV Channel 11 last week.

ACLU leaders said their complaint was prompted by phone calls received after the city of Redlands recently agreed to remove a cross from the city seal.

"Smaller jurisdictions have been bullied by the ACLU," Antonovich spokesman Tony Bell said. "Redlands gave in, but residents are raising money for a private legal challenge."

Since the ACLU's threat, hundreds of people have sent e-mails and called county officials to express overwhelming opposition to changing the county seal. A Las Vegas woman offered to donate $5 toward defense of an ACLU lawsuit if one is filed.

"Please do not give in," she wrote. "They must not win this fight. The whole world is watching."

Troy Anderson, (213) 974-8985 troy.anderson@dailynews.com

IF YOU GO: The Board of Supervisors will meet at 1 p.m. Tuesday at the Kenneth Hahn Hall of Administration, 500 W. Temple St., Room 381B.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: aclu; catholiclist; cross; government; losangeles; religion
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"This is not open to debate among reasonable jurists," ACLU attorney Ben Wizner said. "This is a closed question, and it's not even a close call."

Sure it is, you lying scumbag Commie.

1 posted on 05/31/2004 6:24:30 PM PDT by Mark
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To: Mark

2 posted on 05/31/2004 6:26:37 PM PDT by hole_n_one
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To: missyme; VOA

Ping


3 posted on 05/31/2004 6:28:29 PM PDT by bwteim (Begin With The End In Mind)
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To: hole_n_one

I'm offended by that ship. Oh, wait-- L.A.-- Ship of fools?


4 posted on 05/31/2004 6:30:20 PM PDT by Mark (Treason doth never prosper, for if it prosper, NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON.)
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To: Mark

Better change the name of the county, too, since "Angels" are unquestionably a religious term and an obvious endorsement of religion. And, while we're at it, lets change the name of all the days of the week since they are names of Norse gods and distinctly religious, discriminatory to atheists every time they are forced to say a week day name.


5 posted on 05/31/2004 6:34:23 PM PDT by formercalifornian ("Our Senate always opens with a prayer, followed by an investigation." --Will Rogers)
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To: Mark
Maybe the A.C.L.U. would feel better with a hammer and sickle on the seal...
Now that we can arrange...
Of course they'd have to relocate. LMAO
I wonder how they feel about Santa Monica, Santa Barbara and Santa Margarita...
6 posted on 05/31/2004 6:36:29 PM PDT by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1/5 1st Mar Div. Nam 69&70 Semper Fi http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com)
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To: Salvation

ping


7 posted on 05/31/2004 6:41:11 PM PDT by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1/5 1st Mar Div. Nam 69&70 Semper Fi http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com)
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To: formercalifornian

Isn't the real name of the city something like La Reina de Los Angeles (Queen of the Angels) -- the Virgin Mary?


8 posted on 05/31/2004 6:42:16 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: bwteim
from the article:
Adopted in March 1957, the county seal was designed by the late county Supervisor
Kenneth Hahn, father of the current Los Angeles mayor, James Hahn.


IIRC, one time when Martin Luther King visited California, Kenny Hahn was just
about the only politician in Los Angeles who'd actually be seen in public
with King.
(sounds amazing now doesn't it?)

If I were on the city counsel, I'd mention that little incident...and ask them
if they honestly think King would think censoring the cross is a good thing.

I know I'd lose, but I'd get the b@$stards on the record.
9 posted on 05/31/2004 6:42:17 PM PDT by VOA
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Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Sorry (Get-)A-CLU...you need to re-read the First Amendment

10 posted on 05/31/2004 6:43:42 PM PDT by CounterCounterCulture
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To: hole_n_one

petas gonna sue because that seal promotes the Beef industry as well


11 posted on 05/31/2004 6:44:12 PM PDT by al baby (Hope I don't get into trouble for this)
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To: formercalifornian

Name it los pot holes


12 posted on 05/31/2004 6:47:10 PM PDT by al baby (Hope I don't get into trouble for this)
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To: Mark
Looks to me like it's just another anti-hispanic outburst by the ACLU out there.

They must have finally figured Mexicans tend to be church-going people, and not the secular humanists the professional left had always assumed them to be.

13 posted on 05/31/2004 6:50:01 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: RobbyS

Call Mike Antonovich and urge him to take it to the Supreme Court. He is MAD. (213) 974.5555. I called, we had a good laugh. It might just take a BIG city to make the ACLU back down. They should be thrown out of the country. Marxist Pigs.


14 posted on 05/31/2004 6:50:48 PM PDT by bboop
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To: CounterCounterCulture
Get A-clu, very nice I love it....Sooner or later Political correctness and the ACLU crowd will comes to blows with the real America and it wouldn't surprise me to see some Attorneys decorating trees.
15 posted on 05/31/2004 6:51:25 PM PDT by JamesA ( The more you try to change my convictions the more resolved I am to keep them.)
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To: Mark

Yes, it is worth it.


16 posted on 05/31/2004 6:56:03 PM PDT by freekitty
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To: bboop

Omce upon a time the Church would have raised a stink. but I think Mahoney is secretly a member of ther ACLU if not of the Masons! Come to think of it, I may just have offended the Masons: They have better taste.


17 posted on 05/31/2004 6:57:13 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS

I am offended that they pout a Cow on the seal , an obvious reference to maxine Waters, Why didnt a Bull get that spot.


18 posted on 05/31/2004 7:30:05 PM PDT by sgtbono2002 (I aint wrong, I aint sorry , and I am probably going to do it again.)
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To: Mark

If it is worth fighting for...isn't it worth dying for?


19 posted on 05/31/2004 7:31:49 PM PDT by antaresequity (This is not the "War on Terror"...Islam is the common denominator.)
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To: sgtbono2002

Yes, they should rename Los Angeles, Sacramento and all the cities with missions in them.



20 posted on 05/31/2004 7:35:07 PM PDT by BurbankKarl
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