Posted on 05/24/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by churchillbuff
Christ died and arose carrying the faults of the world to God that God may once and for all do away with the penalty of sin.
That has been accomplished. What we know amongst christian Ranks is what Jesus stated himself and through the apostles. One is saved by believing God and the sacrifice of his son. By faith we are saved. Not in an institution; but, in God. We can stand together as fellow countrymen. But as religions, we are seperate as defined by doctrine. We are neighbors, and that is the thing to remember.
Some of you know the charges of Christ, and that I think does you a service in at least trying to live up to that which you attempt. Individual Catholics aren't enemies of Christianity. Those who truly do try to do for God are alies whether they're doctrinally right or not. It just seems that some can't understand such simple things as this.
Hat's off.
The faith is truth AND beauty.
Another convert chiming in.
See 498.
/self bump
Havoc, pay attention. You've made it very clear you don't understand Christianity and yet you claim to stand in lone judgement of the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
All that is required of us is to believe and be saved... yes, the Bible tells us so. What you so brazenly gloss over is WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE? Believe is an action word, as all such words are to God. Take "faith" for example. Abraham is our father in faith. Was it credited to him as righteous to say "yes" to God? No. Was it credited to him as righteous to gather up his son and the implements of the sacrifice? No. It was credited to him as righteousness when he attempted to strike his son down as God had commanded and had to be stopped in the attempt. Faith is more than knowing what God expects of us, it's DOING it!
Jesus told us that man can have no greater love for his fellow man than to lay down his life for him. Was it enough for Jesus to come and share His saving philosophy? No. Was it enough for Jesus to tell us of the Father's love for us? No. Love required Him to demonstrate sacrificial giving of His life that we may know that God loves us beyond human understanding.
Is love simply gazing into the eyes of your spouse, going ga ga? No, that's affection. True love is sacrifice when we foresake all others.
Yes, we are saved in our belief and faith. However, in our belief and faith, we are to live as Christians and do the work of Jesus's Father in Heaven. Jesus said that His true disciple is one who does the will of His Father in Heaven. He also said that not everyone who calls out to Him "Lord! Lord!" will be accepted into the Kingdom.
True belief goes beyond the creed and beyond worship to ACTION.
To make the claims you do about the Catholic faith makes it clear to disregard completely the Book of James (as do nearly all Protestants I know). However, it is not in conflict with the Book of Romans. Romans tells us from whence we find our Salvation, James tells us how to live as Christians.
Just as sin draws us away from God, good works discipline our flesh to the service of God. The analogy I would use is that Jesus openned the door for us but it is still up to us to walk through it.
Most FReepers have learned that Havoc is a one trick pony, and thus they simply ignore the lunatic fringe. There are 3 or 4 other regular FReepers who are foaming at the mouth anti-Catholic lunatic bigots who are also routinely ignored. Two years ago Jim Robinson held a mass purging of most of these nut jobs, but a few laid low, or have returned.
But I appreciate your perseverence non-the-less.
See, that's where I think some of you, at least to an extent, get it. But I don't think ya'll are fully aware of the extent that doctrinal issues prevent fully cleaning it up.
My understanding, and I have to say up front that this is an area I haven't studied, is that Priests recieve (according to your form of salvation) the full measure of grace needed for salvation at ordination. And, I understand that their ordination cannot be revoked. They can be released; but, their ordination would be intact. The issue of their salvation isn't a problem to me - it merely begs the question of how it is that the church can do it for the priests and not for the congregates. Christians understand that God is no respector of persons. And the issue of irremovable ordination seems quite problematic. Would seem to make it pretty tough to deal with. Care to comment on these - confirm, deny or otherwise.
Contrare. Faith is faith whether acted upon or not. Thus the statement By James:
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
While I agree that faith without works is dead, I don't agree that faith doesn't exist without works. If I have glue and paper and don't use the glue on the paper, I still have glue and paper, they're just dead because they're unused. So with faith. If you have faith that God heals and yet never act upon that faith to heal someone, you yet have faith; but, it is dead because the work hasn't been applied to put it to work. The faith and ability of God remain present - they just aren't doing anything until we put motion to our belief. Just as with Caiaphas who believed what Christ said; but, couldn't bring himself to confess it openly. That failure to confess - to act upon faith left him unsaved. Believe AND confess. The two go together because faith without requisit action is dead.
I understand Christianity quite well, sir.
To make the claims you do about the Catholic faith makes it clear to disregard completely the Book of James
Really? LOL. James does nothing more than tell us - what good is it to others if you don't use it. Acting on faith is required for any number of things. But it's clear that works don't save anyone. They don't even maintain salvation. Jesus made that clear:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Verse 22 is a short list of work combined with faith to accomplish an end. and is summed up saying they'd done many works. But Jesus says - I NEVER KNEW YOU. Works can't save you. But putting work to your belief can shed light into vast areas of darkness. Putting our faith to work makes us good examples - good employees if you will. But we are still employees - still saved whether we funtion adequately or not - Paul commented plainly on that. Faith acted upon is imputed for righteousness. But some mistake that for kindness acted upon. Or the hopeful appearance of kindness. Kindness is supposed to be our nature if Christ be in us. But kindness and faith are not the same thing. As a boyscout I was taught to do good deeds - to be kind and act upon that kindness; but, none of us were under any illusions that this meant we were righteous or that it was acting from faith. We were just showing our kindness by putting it to work. Actions speak louder than words. That is a universal truism. And James in no way disputes this. He merely says it's better to show your faith than to talk about it. I wholeheartedly agree. But it has nothing to do with whether you're saved or not.
Show me UNUM SACTUM in scripture. The orthodox church never taught it. It wasn't taught for some 1000 years after Christ till Rome decided to proclaim it. When they did, it turned salvation on it's ear. The scripture tells us one thing, and you tell us another. It shows two things plainly - the Roman church in direct contention with Scripture AND with orthodoxy, And it shows the Church in ERROR. Two competing sects, both claiming to be the true church, yet one of them teaching a matter is required and the other rejecting it. Error.
Just one example. But, yeah, we see how Doctrine is scripture to you. Your doctrine supplants scripture in the minds of your clergy. But, that was the error of the Pharisees and Saducees. Which is why Christ said obey them because they sit on moses seat upholding the law; but, to beware of their doctrine - to keep oneself from it - that would be the part of Matthew 18 your clergy seems to miss when it demands obedience even though they seem to be in error.
Correction: that would be the part of Matthew 16 your clergy seems to miss when it demands obedience even though they seem to be in error.
I haven't ignored God's word. And I'm the one trying to have a conversation here while you run a monologue on the sidelines because you can't seem to converse. You're projecting yet again. And you are spamming the thread with it perhaps to seek attention but more likely to seek to distract because you can't answer.
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