Posted on 05/24/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by churchillbuff
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) -- As president of the Christian Coalition of Alabama, John Giles is no stranger to a pew. Yet he remembers well the time he got lost in a Roman Catholic church.
"I couldn't even follow the order of service, it was so foreign to me," Giles says of that day some six years ago.
Since then he's found his way and a new home in the Roman Catholic church — a home that might seem foreign to the overwhelmingly Protestant church population of Alabama.
"I have to admit to you that the whole time that I was in that church service, I was reduced to tears, and I couldn't explain it," Giles said Monday in an interview with The Associated Press.
"In fact," he jokes, "you would have thought I had been spending the whole weekend down at the House of the Rising Sun down in New Orleans, that I had all this sin in my life that I had to get out."
In any case, Giles and his wife, Deborah, were received into the Catholic Church at St. Peter's Parish in Montgomery on Easter Sunday.
Such a decision normally wouldn't be a matter of public interest, but Giles says he anticipated the questions that have followed his conversion from the Protestant faith.
"It would be nice if my private, Christian walk could be my private, Christian walk, but it's very difficult in my job for that to be the case," he says.
Giles says he knew the questions would come because as a Protestant he, too, had mistaken notions about Catholics. And the most frequent question he gets from his friends is "why?"
With that in mind he wrote an eight-page letter explaining his reasoning. In it, he explains that he had attended a variety of Protestant churches in Montgomery, including Christian Life Church and River of Life Church.
But once he visited the Roman Catholic church, he found himself in awe of its history and ritual, particularly its use of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch in each service.
Trips to Israel and Rome spurred his curiosity. And the deeper he looked into the faith — which is the largest in the United States but lags behind Southern Baptists and other Protestant denominations in the South — the more he says he realized that many of his beliefs about Catholicism had been wrong.
"There is a perception among Protestants — you kind of have this perception that if you're Episcopal or Catholic, you're not even saved, you're not born again, which is totally a myth," he says.
He recalls one example from the New Year's holiday, which he spent in Florida with the chairman of his board. He had told the chairman of his and Deborah's plans to convert, and he says they were well-received.
"But we went to some other friends of theirs' house on one of the nights we were down there," Giles remembers. "And so we're sitting around visiting and this one lady was teaching a Sunday School class on cults. And she began to name off all the cults that she'd be teaching and named Catholic in there."
He acknowledges that the reaction by his Protestant constituents may be mixed.
"We didn't make this change to win friends and influence people and do it from a popularity standpoint, because we knew that in the state of Alabama, this is probably not a popular position to take in the Christian movement," he says. "So it remains to be seen."
But he hopes they, like he and his wife, will keep an open mind.
"We hope that we could have a small contribution to building bridges where there weren't bridges," he says. "Because Christians are Christians. There's no such thing as Christians and Catholics."
Really. I know of Christan's that think Christ was a myth. Be careful if you say but those are not Christan's. That starts a conversation worthy of chatt. A 2000 year sometimes dialog and at others times monologues. Even if you give your version of what you think a Christian is and sows dissension in a mostly political forum.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." -- Romans 10:17.
Well, all I can say is that the best way to learn about it is from other Catholics. From what I've seen on this forum, Catholicism is greatly misunderstood due to people learning about us from non-Catholics and anti-Catholics.
There are plenty of Catholic folks here such as NYer, Polycarp IV, Salvation, BlackElk and many others that would be happy to add you to their ping lists.
At least then you would be hearing about Catholicism from Catholics. And, then you can decide for yourself if it is for you. I hope you will find that it is.
BTW, We do read the Bible. There are three readings from it every Sunday. Though the average Catholic can benefit by increased individual study of the bible. That is something that converts from Protestantism help us to remember.
That is true. That's why I joined the choir. I'm not the choir type, but there was an obvious underrepresentation of male voices in our parish. That can be like listening to a band of clarinets, oboes, violins and flutes.
If you want things to change, you've got to be willing to try to bring about change.
If you don't sing, maybe you could consider being on the coffee and donut committee. We have one and everyone is invited after mass once a month to hang around after mass and get acquainted.
I used to go to mass waiting for someone to be friendly to me. Then it dawned on me one day that it was my job to be friendly to others.
Technically, the term "heretic" is usually reserved to a Catholic who denies a dogma of the faith. Persons who were never Catholics aren't usually considered to fall under that classification.
The Catholic Church has no trouble calling anyone who is validly baptized (which includes almost all baptized Protestants) a "Christian". I believe Vatican II said that pretty clearly.
What you're reading is the foreward to the New American Bible, which is the default American English-language Catholic translation. It wasn't produced by the Vatican, it's just on their website as a resource. (I believe it was produced, indirectly, by the American bishops.)
The notes, in terms of authority, are about at the same level as most any Catholic book you'd pick up at a bookstore ... that is, it has the nihil obstat and the imprimatur, meaning that a bishop and his censor approved it, but it's hardly infallible teaching binding on the faithful, nor is it even at the level of something a Vatican congregation would promulgate.
Catholics are free to deny the documentary hypothesis. Here: watch me. I'm Catholic, and I think both the DH and the similar "Q" theory of the Gospels are historically bogus.
Go ahead: write a letter to my bishop denouncing me as a heretic. ;-)
This is not what Vatican I says which states:
This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold,...
Didn't we once talked about consistency?
Now there's a thought with a million possibilities for discussion threads. I know one thing certain; Yeshua (Jesus) was born Jewish and wasn't resurrected a christian, he's still Jewish!
These are not prejudices that you have noted, they are reasoned understandings of the catholic system. Prejudice and bigotry involve judging something or someone before they know anything about them.
Now, I can pick apart in ten minutes what you've rattled off about Mary and put it in terms that pretty much anyone can understand. Religionists are like lawyers, picking words most favorable to what they do in order and in hope of trying to hide behind the words. Actions, however, are the arbiters of truth. And the Roman church's actions judge what she does, not the statements of people. And it isn't the fault of people that you should be so judged as a religion with regard to what you do. Did not Jesus say to avoid even the appearance of evil. To not present yourself in action or deed in such a manner as to give your brother cause to sin?
I know there are misconceptions with any religion. But Catholicism has historically been a religion, to quote a favorite movie, with six faces and three tongues. It's hard if not utterly impossible to reconcile Christ's words with Catholic doctrine or action often times. A single example is 'let you who are without sin cast the first stone' or his command to Peter to put down his weapon for he who lives by the sword shall die by it.. vs. the Catholic example of murdering people who disagree with their views in the inquisitions and the like.
These are not baseless prejudices, they are established facts from which there is no defense but to hide behind rationalizations. Many of the Protestant groups are disarmed in dealing with this for they have marched to the same tune if not the same drummer. Christianity isn't a club wherein we act after the ramblings of some philosopher or group of them. Nor is bigotry defined by making sound judgements on good information - it is the absence of such.
Thusly, the charge by definition is a falsehood.
As far as whether Catholics believe Christ died for their sins, I don't know what the origin of such a silly statement could have derived from; but, I do know that priests out their representing your church - esp the one in charge of Catholic answers, say that Jesus' death on the cross wasn't enough to save us in and of itself. And I have the audio of the debate in which he stated it plainly. I have others on audio stating the same thing on behalf of the Catholic church. Catholicism has an entirely different system of salvation than that defined by Christ. Of course you would say, we just don't understand. Problem is, we do. And the charge of misunderstanding is intended to beg reason.
I wish there was something you defined which is actually bigotry so that I could see for myself what bigotry is as charged. This far, the charge appears to be a rhetorical device.
***"...pure—perfect—sure—truth—eternal...***
That is a FANTASTIC list!!!
Thank you for posting it!!
Well, all Christian churces are all facets of the same diamond.
All churches, their stewards being fallible men, will fall from grace from time-to-time. We all know the examples from every christian faith. The way I figure it, redundancy is good. We all have the same faith, we just express it in seperate and distinct, and sometimes not-so-distinct ways.
We are all catholic, (with a small 'c') in our faith, despite much nuanced debate to the contrary. Keep your individual Christian faith...change if you will, learn and understand how other people express their Christian beliefs. It only adds to your own faith when you do so.
I am happy for this guy.....he's found something that made his Christian journey more fulfilling. That's it.
Again, prejudice, is PRE-JUDGEMENT. You might find a dictionary and look it up. This is outright ignorance or deception. One or the other.
And I didn't make claim of knowing more about your religion than you do, though, if others here and elsewhere are to be drawn from for example, that wouldn't be surprising. Most even here hardly know the full history apart from what the church of Rome feeds them. And that's just stating facts.
Looking back to your example of mariolatry or mariology (whichever term you prefer) the issue that is undeniable is that the term Veneration is 100% interchangeable with Worship by definition. But "worship" isn't a pc word when everyone knows that particular word is so blatent in it's application that it could not be so blatently waved about and gotten by with, therefore, one hides behind a word people aren't so readily familiar with. Examples abound.
Moses was put to death and his remains dealt with by God himself in order to prevent Israel from doing with him what catholicism does with it's so-called "saints". Which is perhaps the reason why one is greated with the word "Bigot" when pointing out such blatent contradictions of stance.
So, can you point out something where people are Prejudging your religion based on ignorance of it? Or do you intend to merely abuse language because judgements based on the facts paint you into a position of feeling picked on for being exposed and or corrected? Proving your claim of prejudice would require an actual show of Prejudgement. Claiming prejudice by redefining it to feeling picked on is whining about not getting away with something. On the other hand, I would dare say that most here are not too much aware of how the catholic church behaves itself in other countries. I suppose it would be bigotry to point out how they run rough shot in southamerica yet today as they did in Europe in earlier days.. Can you tell us if noting present activities is also included in your redefinition of Bigotry? Are their more words redefined for your purposes. I know the word "saint" means something quite different in christianity than in catholicism so we do have two redefined terms. Any more we should know about? Or shall I dispense with Sarcasm in hopes that you will so we can continue with honest conversation?
***1500 years, Catholicism was THE Church***
The Orthodox are not Christians?
| Entry: | worship |
| Function: | verb |
| Definition: | honor |
| Synonyms: | admire, adore, adulate, bow down, canonize, celebrate, chant, deify, dote on, esteem, exalt, extol, glorify, idolize, laud, love, magnify, praise, pray to, respect, revere, reverence, sanctify, sing, venerate |
| Concept: | religious action |
| Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5) Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. |
If you don't know the difference between the definition and a synonym, you'll have bunches of fun with Roget's.
Still it is fun getting your theology from Websters.
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