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To: jerrydavenport
It is simple. His loyalties lie with the Iraqi people. Why is this hard to understand? He does not work for us. He works with us when we further the freedom of the Iraqi people. He does not work for Iran. He will work with Iran, when they are enemies of his and the Iraqi people's enemies. The CIA can't wrap its head around the idea of a patriot for a different country. That's all they have on their hands here. Drives them absolutely batty.
132 posted on 05/25/2004 7:20:58 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: JasonC
It is simple. His loyalties lie with the Iraqi people

His loyalties lie with himself. That much is clear.

It is quite simple to understand that the U.S. needed to distance themselves from this man and his organization.

Chalabi may be able to distance himself from his organization, and he is welcome to try.

He is also welcome to continue to position himself to make a run at president of Iraq, if they allow him to.

At least it will not appear that he is connected in any way to the U.S.

All this negative intelligence is interesting, but the split was going to happen regardless. he just made it much easier to do so, over the objections of some power players in Washington.

Best of luck to him, and I would stay away from Jordanian airlines.

136 posted on 05/25/2004 7:31:43 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Lex et Liberatas......Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!)
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To: JasonC

Well even the north koreans got the centrifuges from pakistan in return for north korean missiles to pakistan.

It's a close collaboration between the two. pakistan has the nukes, but needs the missiles, whereas north korea has the missiles and needs the nukes.

pakistano proliferation to iran and libya again was to create a pan islamic super bloc to confront america.

You have to realize that pakistan was the main backer of taliban and al qaeda and that most al qaeda operatives still find refuge in pakistan.

That the same people who were supporting al qaeda and the taliban, only 3 years back are still in govt in pakistan.

you can't really expect them to have undergone an ideological conversion in the aftermath of 911.

They're merely providing lip service to the war on terror to avoid an iraq like invasion of pakistan. they're apprehending the old al qaeda cadres and replacing them with new ones, people western intelligence wouldnt be able to identify.

it is a very treacherous nation. You'd find it behind most of the terror that you see in the world today. Chechen terrorists, al qaeda, indian terrorists, bosnians, taliban etc etc.


139 posted on 05/26/2004 12:29:14 AM PDT by jerrydavenport
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To: JasonC

people spy for many reasons.

1- ideological reasons. They're opposed to a certain dogma, religion or way of life.

2- Hurt: They've been hurt or abused by people from a certain country, ideology, dogma or religion.

3- Common interests: Their world view coincides with yours, so they forge an alliance of common interests.

4- Purely selfish reasons: this could be money, sex, power, fame. love or all five.

if you look at all the incentives for spying, you'd see that people who have been hurt by a system would make the best spies. if they have been hurt bad enough, Vengeance would overshadow all other feelings.If the hurt has been broad enough, they'd stereotype and blame an entire group of people or an ideology for the hurt, and it would ultimately turn into an ideological struggle against a system, that they now considers evil enough to be taken apart.

These spies though can be hurt easily and alienated. they have a very low tolerance for injustice and hurt.
Since they have resisted an entire system in the past, they can be extremely stubborn to the point of self destruction.

Jewish people working against nazi germany could have been spies of this kind. Shiite persecuted by saddam and kurds would also fall into this category, but then the shiites would have stronger loyalties to another hostile power iran.

ideological spies, make good spies provided their convictions aren't superficial. They still can have national or regional loyalties. they might want to change the system, but their loyalties still might be to their country, race, or religion.
philby, burgess blunt and most MI5 spies were of this kind.

spies who work for a common interest, like the iranians and us who both wanted saddam gone, have loyalties only to that common interest. that common interest is because of their loylaties to another country, religion or race that is served by those interests.

As soon as that interest is served, their loyalties are gone.

This has been true for both the shiites in iran and islamists fighting the soviets in afghanistan.

These people invariably are double agents. They'd be passing your secrets to iran, pakistan or saudi arabia and their disinformation to you. They'd be just manipulating you against a common enemy. they might consider you a long term enemy as well.

Spies who spy to serve themselves only, invariably end up as double agents. Even if they're making millions from you, they'd still try to make a few extra grands by selling you to the other side. Now if they don't even have any ideological leanings towards your side, they'd most likely pass your secrets to your enemies and their disinformation to you.
Robert hansen and ames might bave been spies of this kind.

you have to realize that muslims have very strong loyalties to islam, loyalties strong enough to overcome almost all other incentives as a result they end up as double agents, passing you disinformation and passing your secrets onto the islamic world.

If you pay attention. The US had been successful against the germans and russians because american linguists were used to spy on them. We have been somewhat successful against cubans as wel, mostly for the same reasons.

we apprehended ames and hannsen, because the americans who had them undersurveillance didnt have oyalties to another
entity. We have failed miserably to catch islamic spies though, because muslims will not let another muslim down.

They will only frame people, who they consider a threat to islam and who refuse to be a part of their global pan islamic conspiracies.


140 posted on 05/26/2004 12:32:09 AM PDT by jerrydavenport
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