Dead Scotsman, African snakes likely connected [Clinton Library Cobra claims first victim]

Arkansas Democrat-Gazette ^ | May 21, 2004 | MICHAEL FRAZIER AND C.S. MURPHY

[spetznaz]

Well, let me try to answer your questions:

Could be related to the snakes less aggressive nature, its less populated range, and the fact that the average Australian wears boots or shoes.

That is indeed true, and a significant contributory factor. Fierce Snakes are found deep within the Australian continent, most Australians wear adequate foot protection, and Australian hospitals are much better than your typical Indian or African establishment. However with that said, the Fierce Snake does have significantly less aggression levels than say the Mamba or a Saw-Scaled Viper. As an aside, I once saw Steve Irwin lift one up and out it next to his face. I'd pay to see him do that with a Mamba (caveat: I personally would not try that with a Fierce Snake ...docile as they may be. 'Docile' snakes do have a propensity for biting when you least expect them to ....for example, some Gaboon viper victims have found out in an excrutiating way, even though in some places kids drag them around by the tail. The gaboon viper is an extremely fast striker, though slow in moving, and has extremely potent and destructive hemotoxic/cytotoxic venom. Yet, unlike its cousin the Puff Adder it is not as aggressive ....but when it bites then it's your @$$).

I thought it WAS an Elapid. At any rate it was the last time I checked. If not, what is it?

I was talking about the South American Bushmaster. In that, even though it is not an Elapid it fills the niche that the Taipan does in Australia, the King Cobra in Asia, and the Mamba in Africa. My exact comment was as follows: ....or even the South American Bushmaster for that matter (which coincidentally is the Requiem snake for S.America. Although it is not an Elapid, it fills the niche that the Mamba fills in Africa and the Taipan in Australia).

Well, actually I was sort of a herpetologist once upon a time. And I would most certainly rather be in a room with a Tiger Snake or Fierce Snake rather than a Taipan or Mamba

And that was my point. Most would rather be with the Fierce snake than with a mamba.

Having said that, I would much rather have a viper of any kind at the end of my snake stick than a cobra, mamba,or taipan. They are mcuh faster, and more intelligent and far more aggresive - although Cobras vary a lot with the species and are a lot easier to handle than a Taipan or Mamba.

Yep ...totally agree with you. I'd rather have almost any snake on my stick rather than a Mamba. That thing can strike in a whole number of ways. However, on the viper part. Personally (and this is totally based on my personal feelings), I'd rather have a cobra (even large species like the Egyptian) than certain vipers ....like the 'Bitis' species (Puff adder, Gaboon viper and Rhinocerous viper). I've seen what their bites can do to human flesh .....and severe necrosis is something I'd rather avoid (call me vain LOL). Even though I said the gaboon doesn't LOVE to bite, it has the longest fangs of any snake and venom that can kill you and slough off your skin at the same time. And as I said I know a person who was tagged by a Puff Adder and died. And the Rhinocerous is basically a beautiful but horned Gaboon viper with the personality of a Puff Adder.

PErsonally, I'd rather be tagged by a cobra or even a mamba. Why? Because if i am near a hospital then i ahve a chance. With a 'Bitis' viper, i have a better chance of survival than say a Mamba bite .....but my body would be devasted by the venom. I guess it is better to die of a neurotoxic venom than a hemotoxic/cytotoxic cocktail.

Are you a herpetologist?

I used to be in my late teens ....doing research and going to the field for cataloguing catches. Had one of the most detailed catalogues for venomous serpents ....far better than most out there. Then I decided to do something with more money, hence coming to the US to do my college work.

[spetznaz]

I'd seen on TV that the Fierce Snake is also called the Inland Taipan. Mind if I ask what the difference is or why you list the two separately. Just a point of curiosity since my knowledge of snakes is pretty much limited to Steve Irwin reruns.

That is one of the names of the Fierce Snake ...Inland Taipan. It is also known by some as the Smooth Snake.

It is a different species from the Taipan. The reason they first called it the Inland Taipan is because they thought it was a sub-species ....but after it was shown to be a different species that name tended to loose its popularity.

The scientific name for the Fierce Snake (Inland Taipan) is Oxyuranus microlepidotus, while that of the Taipan is Oxyuranus scutellatus. They are as different as say a Black Mamba (Dendroaspis Polylepis) is from a Green Mamba (Dendroaspis Angusticeps). Definitely related ....but definitely different.

And their aggression factors are by far divergent. But both are exceedingly venomous ....with the Fierce Snake having more potent venom, but the Taipan being more dangerous due to its aggressiveness.

[spetznaz]

Bushmaster: Largest and venomous snake of the new world, member of the pit viper family, found in the tropics of Central and South America. Unlike the related rattlesnake, it lays eggs. It reaches a length of from 8 to 12 ft. .

[pepsionice]

I think this was a conspiracy. The Scotsman probably was a Kerry undercover guy...who was supposed to meet Monica there in Little Rock that night. Things went wrong...he met Hillery's secret lesbian lover instead, got drunk on Arkansas moon shine, and ended up sleeping with Paula Jones. With his life in a total mess and sitting in a $24 a night motel near the interstate, he watched Animal Planet and the Steve Irwin "snake" special. Seeing Steve at work, and half-drunk on the shine...the Scotsman felt invincible. He scurried out of the motel in search of a Dennys at 4AM. Driving down the road, he happened to glance to this left and noticed a box out in a grassy area. He stopped and checked out the contents...and decided to play with the bigger snake (just like Steve Irwin did on the show)...but there in the darkness and with the shien still in effect...he misguessed the distance between the snake and his leg...and he got bit. He jumped into the truck....and tried to find a Little Rock hospital. He never made it in time. And the sad thing about this story...the Scotsman who was a Kerry undercover guy...can't blame GW for his stupidity.

[ZULU]

"As an aside, I once saw Steve Irwin lift one up and out it next to his face."

I haven't figured that guy out yet. Either he's a real expert or a total fol - probably both.

"The gaboon viper is an extremely fast striker, though slow in moving, and has extremely potent and destructive hemotoxic/cytotoxic venom. Yet, unlike its cousin the Puff Adder it is not as aggressive ....but when it bites then it's your @$$)."

I've read that. There is a horrifying account written many years ago by arlin Perkins, who was formerly director of the Lincoln Park Zoo. He had a gaboon Viper which was unable to shed the skin over one eye. In the process of removing it, the viper bit him with ONE fang. He gave a detailed narrative of the harrowing results - bleeding from mucous membranes everywhere - only immediate medical treatment saved him.

I love snakes, but people who play around with deadly venomous species, either as a career or to feed their egos are palying a dangerous game and the odds aren't in their favor.

"I was talking about the South American Bushmaster. "

Sorry I misread what you said. But I know Herpetologists have a great penchant for continually reclassifying, lumping and splitting taxa and I thought I had missed something. Again, I have seen some footage recently on T.V. of people handling Bushmasters and they seem lethargic enough. But there is another horrifying story by Raymond L. Ditmars, in which is chased around a closed room by an angry Bushmaster he had jsut received.

"I'd rather have a cobra (even large species like the Egyptian) than certain vipers .."

I worked as a reptile keeper at the Bronx Zoo many years ago (sorry I ever left - the best job I ever had.) We had an exihint with two black-lipped Cobras in it. The keeper who handled them said that they could hear his footsteps coming down the corridor as he cared for his charges inother exhibits along the hall. They were always waiting for him and knew which side of the door opened and would try to make a rush for freedom everytime he opened it. One day one of them succeeded. He took off like a bullet down the keeper's hallway and disappeared. He was gone for a few weeks and we couldn't find him. Eventually he was located. Their was a stairway running up to the second floor where specimens not on exhibit were kept. The stairway had very wide treads that ran well back of where you stepped. One of the keepers noticed him one day, coiled up quite contentedly at the rear of one of the treads. We all wondered how long he was there and how many of us had just passed him by while he silently waited there.
We also had a VERY large King Cobra. Whenver we had to clean his cage we moved him into an adjoining shift cage by just opening the door and leeting him slither in. We fed him by dropping food down from above through a celing door in the exhibit.

The extire reptile section had installed a series of boxes. Easch box had a series of flags in it. The flags corresponded to different areas of the Reptile House. In each area of the reptile house was a button. If a keeper was ever bitten, he was to immediately hit the button. An alarm would go off and a flag would go up in each box in Reptile House to alert all the other keepers as to where the accident occurred.

We always had a supply of anti-venin on hand for each dangerous species and each keepre was tested for horse serum sensitivity prior to hire.

The Head Keeper at that time, Peter Brazaitis, has recently written a great book just released, called "You Belong in Zoo" about his life story. If you can get it and read it. He was a class act - a great guy with an inexhaustible knowledge of herps - crocs being his special interest.

"Then I decided to do something with more money, hence coming to the US to do my college work.
"

I'm sorry you weren't able to stay in the field, but I know why you left. Unless you want to be a University Professor, job opportunities are limited, but I think are still opportunities available out there for volunteers who like to spend spare time with reptiles.

They are definitely the greatest.

[cyborg]

Maybe he likes you ;;-)

[M Kehoe]

I wonder why there are so many mysterious deaths in Little Rock and the surrounding area. Could it be....nah.

5.56mm

[mtbopfuyn]

No anti-venom available in the hospital.

Yes, so the article said, but why die in an airport parking lot to be found days later after you've bloated when you might have a 1 in a 100 or whatever chance in the hospital. Not that the guy was playing with a full deck to begin with.

[sweetliberty]

"Maybe he likes you"

Oh, parsy and I are buddies. He's one of our more "colorful" local FReepers. He has a wicked fertile mind, a twisted sense of humor and he loves to play with RATs, all qualities I like in a FReeper. But he's really just a big, sweet teddy bear. ...depending, of course, on which side of him you're on.

.

[cyborg]

LOL okay

[spetznaz]

Wow, you worked at the Bronx zoo! That must have been a pretty interesting tenure .....quite interesting. Oh, the flag system you guys instituted was genius, absolute genius! It would cut down the time used in locating the 'missing person' and consequently give the bite victim a much greater chance of survival! That method you guys set up was simply magic.

Steve Irwin. PErsonally I think he is one of a dying breed. The type that learns about stuff by 'playing' with it .....old style. However, he certainly has a propensity for pushing the envelop. But, if you watch carefully you will notice he is quite calculating. He always knows the distance to keep with the crocs ....just beyond strike distance; and with the snakes how he acts with one species is different from what he does with another. He is a gambler, but he knows the stakes and the game. The only problem is he has to win 100% of the time ....he loses once and his life could be at stake.

For comparison think about O'shea. He is the more common, and more modern, herpetologist. He probably knows more about the scientific names and taxa than Irwin does ....and could definitely write a better paper. The only problem with O'shea is that his methodology is not as 'exciting' as Irwin's, hence he tends to try to 'Irwinize' some of his TV episodes. The problem is he has come very close to death ....I've seen him get tagged by snakes on TV and go to hospital.

In fact, I'd say O'shea is mroe likely to be tagged and killed than Irwin ....O'shea is basically a very good checkers player dabbling in high-stakes chess.

Cobras versus vipers. Well, as you correctly put it Elapids are by far the most intelligent snakes. Mambas, Cobras, kraits et al seem to learn, and quickly know habit and habitat. I'd imagine anyone who feeds mambas must always know that he is feeding something that might at this very moment be scheming on how to kill him. And when you think of it, a 15MPH dash in a reptile room by a 9+ footer (let alone the truly big ones) means the snake can quickly close distance with you. Too quickly. Those snakes are like liquid mercury ....they flow.

Vipers on the other hand are more lethargic, and seem a little 'slower in the mind.' However the problem with them is that any wet bite is going to damage your body even if it doesn't kill you. Conversely, an elapid bite (with some exceptions) will only shut down your nervous system. Obviously the neurotoxic venom can kill you faster than most hemotoxic venoms, but the good thing is if you survive you will look the same. Try having a Rhinocerous viper bite you ....the massive quantities of destructive venom will give you such massive tissue destruction you will not like the results when (if) you come out of hospital.

Oh, the elapid exceptions were the various spitting cobras. Their venom is more viper like than cobra like ....and some African spitting species can give tissue destruction to make a Gaboon viper proud.

Anyways, I would not be surprised if somewhere in the US there are non-native snake populations. It is too easy to import 10 green mambas for example and release them in a Florida swamp, or 20 Forest cobras and set them lose in a Louisiana bayou. Much too easy.

And imagine a full grown Black Mamba lose in a New York Burrough?

[fire_eye]

Nice conspiracy theory - but your failure to find a way to blame GWB for this leaves you ineligible for any share in the the royalties that Jim is trying to collect for licensing GWB conspiracy theories to the Demonrats.

We need something like, "Bush had tapped the phone of the snake delivery service and told the CIA to reroute the snake delivery to an empty field where he knew that the Scotsman would be going by on his way back from the Monica tryst."

Or something.

[malia]

and a crooked one at that

[Brimack34]

The Clinton Body count countinues.

[ZOTnot]

OK, now, enough!.

I have seen too many posts referring to 'Arkancide.' I am a relatively new 'newbie'. Can you provide a link? I have some clue (Vince Foster, et al) but what really happened in Arkansas before they moved to Washington?

[malia]

This has been a very interesting and informative snake lesson. But---

What was the Scotsman doing in Arkansas!!!

"While Democratic presidential candidates complain that too many jobs are going overseas, the last Democrat to hold the office is having a Scottish firm build nearly $1 million worth of cabinets for his presidential library.

The foundation building the $160 million Bill Clinton Presidential Library says limited choices forced it to look overseas for the specialized museum cases.

Skip Rutherford, the foundation's president, told the Associated Press yesterday that he and others involved in the project have "worked hard to make sure that Arkansans and then Americans received the work."

Nonetheless, exhibit fabricators Maltbie Associates of Mount Laurel, N.J., subcontracted the manufacturing of 85 glass display cases to Netherfield Visuals of Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland. The contract was worth about $936,000."

Was this a non-union job?!

A good way to not help the AMERICAN ECONOMY, way to go clinton!!!

Now go back and have some fun - we all deserve it!!!

[ZOTnot]

Should not have read your link. Nightmares now sure to follow....

[tinacart]

"the old trouser snake"

Didn't you mean to say "wee bent worm???"

[Zack Attack]

Thanks for the explanation. That helped clear things up. I did a search and I think the Taipan to which you refer, the aggressive one, is commonly called the Coastal Taipan. But clearly, personality-wise, they are different snakes.

[Scotish lass]

More Clues to Bizarre Death of 'Box of Snakes' Briton

By Josie Clarke, PA News


American detectives have released more information surrounding the bizarre death of a Scotsman found half-a-mile from a box of deadly snakes.

Detectives say Garrick Wales ordered the snakes over the internet from a “reptile dealership” in Florida before police found his body in a rented car near a local airport,

Detective Eric Knowles, of the Little Rock Police Department, who is investigating the death, said tonight that the snakes were transported from Florida to Little Rock National Airport at Mr Wales’s request.

He understood Mr Wales, 48, had also taken delivery of other snakes on previous trips to the United States.

Detective Knowles said police still knew little about why Mr Wales ordered the snakes, what he had intended to do with them or where the other snakes were.

“Whether he had a snake fetish, we just simply don’t know,” he said.

Little Rock police found Mr Wales, from Kilmacolm, Strathclyde, dead in his car on May 13. He was pale and surrounded by vomit.

A local electrician discovered a wooden box containing four deadly African snakes near a motorway half a mile away the following day.

The box contained a 14in twig snake, a 6ft green mamba, a 4ft black mamba and a 5ft forest cobra. All four could be deadly and the box was said to be marked with warnings of its contents.

Detective Knowles said police did not yet know how the snakes came to be dumped by the motorway.

It would not be known if Mr Wales died from snake bites until reports came back from post-mortem and toxicology tests.

“We can say that this is definitely not a homicide. There is definitely no foul play as far as someone else contributing to his death. All other possibilities remain open to us.

“We will continue trying to determine what he did with the other snakes. We still have not accounted for those snakes.”

Detective Knowles said Mr Wales’s family told Little Rock police he had travelled to the United States on numerous occasions and owned a computer information business.

Mr Wales’s widow, Pamela, speaking from the family home in Kilmacolm, an affluent commuter village near Glasgow, declined to comment on the nature of her husband’s death.

Mrs Wales, a teacher at a local school, said: “I have no comment to make as it would not be appropriate as the matter is being investigated by American authorities.

“I would ask you to respect my own and my family’s privacy at this time.”

Neighbours of the large detached house spoke of a “lovely man” and “nice neighbour”.

Mr Wales, who was a successful computer programmer for business, was in Little Rock on business.

That is from a scottish paper. I also know more as I am a pupil at the school where Mrs. Wales teaches and her son is in my year. They are cool people and Mr. Wales is a computer programmer. The police think the snakes are linked cos he has been biten before on a previous trip to the states.