Posted on 05/18/2004 9:49:26 PM PDT by Stoat
Just two years ago, the Hayman Fire roared through the Rockies, blackening 138,000 acres and destroying more than 130 homes. It cost roughly $240 million to fight. Did that fire have to grow to that size? Did that many homes have to burn? 7NEWS Investigator Tony Kovaleski has exposed a troubling trail of conflict and red tape inside the U.S. Forest Service.
Earlier this month, after years of problems, the Forest Service grounded its fleet of air tankers. 7NEWS asks: has the government wasted taxpayer money on outdated, dangerous and underperforming aircraft while ignoring bigger, faster and newer technology?
Twenty-three months have passed since the Hayman Fire and Ray and Linda White, who lost their home to the fire, are still angry.
"Bureaucracy and politics is what caused this to happen," Linda White said.
"They should have got the fire out over at Lake George where it started," Ray White said.
The fire destroyed their cabin and destroyed any confidence the couple had in the U.S. Forest Service.
"If it would have been jumped on those first two days, this never would have happened," Linda White said.
Criticism also comes from recognized aviation expert Bill Kauffman.
"The people from the Forest Service seem to have a vested interest in continuing to ineffectively fight fires," said Kauffman.
Following three fatal crashes of Forest Service aircraft back in 2002, a blue ribbon committee also criticized the Forest Service and its fleet, writing in its final report that "a number of potentially viable options were routinely dismissed as too expensive before being carefully examined."
"I would say it's almost criminal that the Forest Service has not brought over here five years ago or 10 years ago these Ilyushin 76s," Kauffman said.
The Ilyushin 76, a Russian waterbomber, is one of several supertankers that experts say can take aerial firefighting into a new era. They're planes that can deliver a liquid payload nearly four times larger then biggest plane used last year.
"It's a remarkable aircraft. It does a remarkable job and it could've been here for nine years fighting fires if it had not been for the hurdles placed in its way by the U.S. Forest Service," said Tom Robinson, who represents the Ilyushin 76.
Proponents of the Il-76 accuse the U.S. government of creating red tape to keep the plane from dousing fires. The Russians even offered the plane for the Hayman Fire.
In a letter obtained by 7NEWS, the city manager of Colorado Springs asked Gov. Bill Owens to cut through the bureaucracy and bring in the Il-76, writing, "It would be a shame to not have a tool such as this."
When asked what kind of difference the Il-76 would have made on the Hayman Fire, Robinson said, "It wouldn't have stopped the fire from becoming a fire, but it would've stopped it from being 90 percent as large as it (was)."
Tom Landon, who is with the U.S. Forest Service, laughs at the idea that the Il-76 could have save 90 percent of the homes burned in the Hayman Fire.
"There's not a catch-all tool out there that would have saved the homes there on the Hayman Fire," Landon said.
In the wake of the blue ribbon committee's criticism, the Forest Service says it's now seriously considering two super tankers -- a modified 747 and a modified DC-10.
But experts say its unlikely any super tanker will be approved to fly and fight fires this year.
"Why didn't they use it? What was there fear?" Linda White wondered. "They should have tried it, and it makes me angry that they didn't do it."
Families like the Whites are left to wonder what may have happened two years ago and what might happen this summer. A governor's spokesman said he did receive a letter from the Colorado Springs city manager but he has no record of responding to the request in any way.
Developers of the 747 are hoping to have the plane approved and ready to fight fires this year but that's only if they can get the green light from the U.S. Forest Service.
And here's another:
A new General Accounting Office (GAO) study http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03503.pdf, released on June 2, details the Forest Service's "serious financial and performance accountability weaknesses." According to the report, the Forest Service has not been able to provide Congress and the public with a clear understanding of what its 30,000 employees accomplish with the approximately $5 billion it receives every year.
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=150-06042003
God speed to the Governor & local officials, and prayers for safety for all those brave men & women who will be on the lines this summer!
I'm going to take that as a rhetorical question, Doug.
In the early days of the project, we had a rec'd anecdote
about Forest Service conventions; apparently a true story:
A convention (one of the many) was held in Montana and the local rental agency had a special on white Lincoln Continentals just for the occasion.
When a convention session broke up one afternoon and the conventioneers all went to the bar, on exit later that evening, Forest Service conventioneers were beside themselves trying to make their set of keys fit in the right white Lincoln.
I am reminded that the groundpounders too
feel threatened by the IL-76. When I make an
attempt (of late, totally unacceptable) to
post anything at all at the most frequently
used forum for groundpounders located here:
http://www.wildlandfire.com/theysaid.htm
[e.g. the DenverChannel or the Firehouse.com links]
You may wish to ask what kind of policy the
forum-master, 'abercrombie' is running there
when only Russian aircraft cannot be discussed.
Reminds me of the Stalinist propaganda mentality:
For God's sake don't ever admit that the west
has anything....
...except in the case of the circle-the-wagons
USFS allies.....in reverse. They need not feel
threatened. We've told them as much. The US will
still need the good ones among them. They are
the ones who actually put down the fires for good.
One of the things I noticed about these people is that they are largely transient. I think that this is a large part of the problem. They don't put down roots and connect with the local communities. They swoop in for a year or two (sometimes driving white Lincolns) and could care less how the local rabble feel about things.
When there is no connection, these people don't feel responsible to the true stewards of the land-the ones that live there, work and raise families there. They really only see the locals as obstacles to their career. After a while they move to another National Park and never look back.
Local governments should take more control because it matters to them what happens in their own back yard. The USFS and NPS have been miserable failures because they just don't care.
Your rental car anecdote made me think that many of them are of a short term rental mentality in a community. I would like to see almost any other agency take charge of wildland fires. It would be a good umbrella for Homland Security to provide, with States, themselves having more control of the use of resources.
You said:
Local governments should take more control because it matters to them what happens in their own back yard.
So true.
Yesterday, we took a look at the DenverChannel item again. Immediately, we contacted Colorado Springs City Management expressing pleasure and thanking them for becoming a part of the accountability loop. Recall the City contacted Colorado's governor in writing on the waterbomber.
Mr. Kovaleski's report stands as a clear reference point for precisely the sort of local interest and involvement in civil defence you address.
Disappointing that the governor didn't take them up on a challenge to the Forest Service and the political Fed to bring on the IL-76. Recall what happened to President Putin, politically, when he refused help for 'The Kursk'.
Another anecdote on local involvement:
Up here in Alberta, a wood products plant manager was on
the radio addressing his company's losses. We caught what he said. When we contacted him, asking him why his wood products association hadn't insisted that the govt here
use the Il-76 as we had written them, he told us the Forest Service had told his association the IL-76 couldn't be used out of the airport serving his area.
Not only was this just plain wrong, EVEN IF that particular airport couldn't be used, there will always be the prospect of using ANOTHER airport as the IL-76 makes up for in speed and liquids volume capabilities what it may lose in not being able to use the local airport in some places, a rare thing for the IL-76 as it is has STOL capabilites under less than max gross takeoff weight (per Janes 'All the World's Aircraft').
North American Smokies should not have out-and-out lied to the people on the IL-76. There are numerous instances of lying on the record. They seem to know they can get away with saying anything with impunity. Disgraceful, especially in civil defence matters.
We took our business plan to a rich oil corporation much involved in the Russian oil business. They complimented us on our business plan, wished us the best and, anticipating trouble with the Smokies, said they "had more confidence in the Russians than they did in their own government's Smokies."
Readers of this thread may also be interested in:
"Wildfire Forecast for West From Bad to Worse"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1141010/posts
"The people from the Forest Service seem to have a vested interest in continuing to ineffectively fight fires," said Kauffman.
Indeed they do, seeing as they won't do what is necessary to reduce the fuel in 190 MILLION ACRES of forests that are currently at risk of catastrophic fire.
Sorry, JohnA, but turning a thread into what might be construed to be a promo is not permitted on FR without permission.
Stoat, have you cleared this sort of post with Jim Robinson?
CO
Hello Carry,
I'm new to Free Republic and I didn't know that it was against the rules.
I didn't think anyone would mind because I only sent the message to people who had actively participated in this thread.
If it's a practice that's frowned upon, I'll certainly not do it in the future.
No offense was intended; it was only intended as a courtesy.
I thought as much and no offense had been taken.
This is a privately owned forum. Think of it as JimRob's livingroom, a place for spirited debate supported with facts. There's nothing wrong with the article. There's nothing wrong with pointing out a poster's affiliations (with his or her permission). One just has to watch for the opportunity to misconstrue intentions and should thus check out possible infringements on forum etiquette with its owner.
He will get back to you.
Heat signatures and some wisps of smoke from wildfires burning in Korean Peninsula are seen in the photo created by American commercial satellite, GFMC. While two forest fires and a normal fire have broken out in South Korea, it appears about 130 fires -- possibly forest fires -- are visible in the North. / Yonhap
Hello Carry,
In retrospect, it seems that I didn't understand what you were referring to....you are referring to this entire thread as a whole, aren't you, not the post I just made, which is what I originally thought?
If it's the entire thread, or at least JohnA's commentary, I should gently remind that I introduced JohnA and stated his affiliation with Global Emergency Response immediately after I became aware that he was participating in the thread.
Since the purchase and/or leasing of multimillion-dollar firefighting aircraft is an activity that, under normal circumstances, only Governments or Government entities can involve themselves with, I am having difficulty seeing a "promotional" conflict in a web medium that is designed for the lay public, not for Government aircraft buyers. JohnA merely has been offering his considerable expertise to people who are interested in learning more about air tankers and the politics surrounding their use in our modern world; a highly specialized form of knowledge that I believe many people would be happy to receive.
No effort at sales, underhandedness, misrepresentation or skullduggery has been made here. Everyone who has read through the thread knows where JohnA is coming from, and they can take his opinions and information for what they are.
One can say that the entire enterprise of Free Republic is one of 'promotion'...the promotion of the conservative viewpoint and it's numerous ancillary facets, which I am a big supporter of. The mismanagement of the U.S. Forest Service is an example of the negative consequences of Socialism...a massive Government entity out of control and endangering life.
Air tankers such as the Ilyushin IL-76 are one of many possible solutions to that problem, and we have certainly not prevented others from advancing their solutions as well. If someone representing a different air tanker were to join the thread and offer his or her expertise, I would certainly not object...I would welcome it because I am interested in finding the BEST solution to the wildfire management problem.
I agree with you that promotions should be kept out of Free Republic, but I'm wondering how else we can have an expert on a complex piece of hardware such as an air tanker contribute to this thread without it being someone who is somehow involved with the aircraft in some capacity?
I take it you think that the Federal government is the ONLY way to conduct an effective and efficient firefighting operation and that it's insane to think otherwise? You think the States are incapable of it? You think private industry couldn't handle it?
How long have you been a socialist? Perhaps you also think that the Federal government legitimately operates National Forests, but if you did you'd be dead wrong. Article I, Section 8 Clause 17:
Not 'forests, animal management, trails, roads, and amusement parks, or firefighting businesses.' There is no authority in the Constitution for National Forests. It is a violation of the equal protection clause and the equal footing doctrine.
You are damn right I want the Federal government out of the firefighting business just like I want them out of the land entertainment and forestry business. They've made a mess of all of it which is why the founders were against such a policy. Were these forests managed correctly, fires would not be the concern that they are. Get that land into private hands and watch the whole problem go away. At least someone would be responsible for it.
It wasn't the whole thread or even the subject; it was where it was going. It was looking like it might turn into a promo for Global Emergency Response. It might appear as if FReepers were to clamor to Congress to buy a particular airplane with those with a profit interest running the discussion. It was just a caution.
I have nothing against any company, American or Russian investing in and promoting better firefighting aircraft. I have nothing against citing their information sources. Running an ongoing discussion with two of their promoters present advocating immediate political action without consideration of all the options (if there are any) is a bit much. FR is not a lobbying organization for corporate interests.
This is your tagline?
(The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
Heh.
THAT's funny.
THAT's funny.
It's also true. If there's one anthropogenic force in the world capable of making a mess of the environment, it's socialism.
It should deeply concern you as an American
that the man PBS chooses to explain the failure
of Columbia, Bill Kauffman, has called the US Forest
Service the next thing to criminal on this issue.
(DenverChannel - The Investigators)
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