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1 posted on 05/17/2004 3:21:47 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I find this article, patronizing, paternalistic, sexist, mindboggling....

...and I agree with it 100 percent.
2 posted on 05/17/2004 3:33:31 PM PDT by Ronin (We are in a war. The enemy is Islam. It's time we stopped pretending otherwise.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Women are heroic for just being women.

I like that.

Seriously though, good article.

3 posted on 05/17/2004 3:34:55 PM PDT by fml ( You can twist perception, reality won't budge. -RUSH)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Yes!


5 posted on 05/17/2004 3:40:23 PM PDT by Indie (We don't need no steenkin' experts!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I can't agree. Our female soldiers have done some uniquely valuable things.

There was a fascinating story awhile back about the team who tracked down Saddam. The team leader was a female 1LT. Do any of you want to tell her she shouldn't have been deployed to Iraq? Can Mr. Engelhard say he's done more for our military efforts than this female officer?

More importantly, we need female soldiers to search female civilians, and to guard them when necessary.

Mostly, I'm glad we have female soldiers to set a civilized example in the barbarian countries where we operate. I'm glad that Afghan girls and women can see United State soldiers -- some of them female -- who do a good job, and deserve the respect and thanks of all American citizens.

As a guy and a soldier I know there are difficulties with women in the military. I just think the benefits outweigh the problems. And if it gets the terrorists ticked off, so much the better.


6 posted on 05/17/2004 3:45:47 PM PDT by 68skylark (.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

BTTT


20 posted on 05/17/2004 5:46:46 PM PDT by hattend (Only Libs can find mandatory death in the Constitution (see abortion and T. Schiavo))
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To: Tailgunner Joe

23 posted on 05/17/2004 5:54:00 PM PDT by Mike Bates (Irish Alzheimer's victim: I only remember the grudges.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Raising a family is beyond the courage of most men.

Well, thanks for falling into the femi-nazi, man-hating group. As a divorced father, I think you are way off base.

24 posted on 05/17/2004 5:54:57 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Rick Nash will score 40 goals this season...)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I agree in part and disagree in part and just ain't sure about some parts.

But it is definately well written, interesting and inspires serious thought on the subject.


26 posted on 05/17/2004 6:02:02 PM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (If we are not alive on 2 Nov 04, our vote will go to the Democrats-stay healthy!!!!!!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I AGREE!

Imagine what will a female do when it is that "time of the month" as a P.O.W.? Better yet after being captured and raped, which is ROUTINE for those captured, that pregnancy will be a nightmare. Lack of showering ... and sheer physical inferiority makes it absurd to have females in combat positions. It defies logic and common sense.
31 posted on 05/17/2004 6:46:16 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Raising a family is beyond the courage of most men.

That's blatant BS. I raised my four kids after their mother was "liberated" in the '70's, and I knew other guys who did as well. It's not courage, it's responsibility.

33 posted on 05/17/2004 7:01:07 PM PDT by jackbill
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I would like to be rude, and use this thread as an excuse to ask people to think about this same issue, but on a bigger scale. believe that we are subtly destroying our society and our culture with this stuff. We are doing this to ourselves, on purpose, because we mean to be doing good.

I would like to use the equalizer from Winamp, over on the right there, as a metaphor for a sort of social contract. We have a number of social factors, represented by sliders, which can be adjusted individually so as to produce a kind of advantage or benefit for men or for women as groups.

For example, one slider might represent "Is exempt from being sent off to foreign lands to be shot at." Historically this slider was set almost 100% in favor of women. Some went, but none were forced, and none could be forced...by law.

Another slider might be "Has ready access to corporate movers and shakers." In fact not many men qualified for this, but we could fairly say that until recently, this slider was set virtually the opposite of the other one, almost 100% in favor of men.

Another one might be "People actually give a damn if anything happens to you." This slider has historically, and continues to be, set nearly 100% in favor of women. This author is the perfect example, asking us to ponder the horrors inflicted on Pvt. Jessica Lynch, in the very week that a mere male had his throat slit and his head held aloft for the cameras. Yeah, he got his 10 minutes of fame, but like Daniel Pearl, he will be forgotten soon enough... while cute little Jessica will continue to be waved in our faces forever as a symbol of this or that.

So we have all these sliders, and collectively they represent a sort of social contract. "Men will do these things, women will do those things, men will have these advantages and women will have those advantages."

It is a truism that bad deals do not work. If the basic "deal" between men and women (which I have represented by these sliders) were not basically fair, our society would not have worked as well as it has. It is simply a fact that societies where people see their lot in life as a "bad deal" do not perform. See Cuba. See the Soviet Union. See most Arab countries.

Life is never fair, but when the deal really is stacked against people by force majeure, whether an elected government or a dictator, people stop performing. They know they're screwed, so the air goes out of them.

Starting about 30 years ago, we became the proud owners of something called a feminist movement. No one was sure what that was, but the noises it made said that it was in favor of "equality." Oh, OK, who could be against that?

Except that it wasn't about equality, it was about moving all the sliders in favor of women. Do grammar school girls lag in math and science? Well, then, let's spend a trillion dollars. Do boys lag about equally in reading and writing? Who cares. Let men start a masculist movement if they care about boys. Same thing with athletics, scholarships, right on down the line. Now we have no recess, no dodgeball, and college graduating classes that are 65% female. Put the "education" slider waaaaay over to the women's side, and thank you feminists for that.

Between the feminists and the chivalrous guys like Jack Engelhard here, we have messed now with pretty much all the sliders from education to corporate access to political access to health care to human males becoming disposable parents, and we end up with something like this:

This is a bad deal. Without even knowing who is on which side, we could safely predict that one side will not perform in this deal. It looks tremendously advantageous to one side, but it isn't. It's like a buyer who has cleverly made a contract to buy new automobiles for fifty cents each. It's a contract, and we might even see a judge say it's enforceable. But guess what? There won't be any cars delivered, judge or no judge. You can negotiate a deal that's so good, it's bad. The other side won't perform.

OK, now back to the thread. I sort of agree with this article. I'm in favor of what works. I look around the world, I don't see the conquering army from the land of women, and I attribute that to all the countries that tried women in their army getting their butts kicked. All the countries left after thousands of years don't do that. OK, I can take a hint.

Here's what we have to stop doing. We have to stop treating each of these sliders as individual items that we can screw with at whim. There is a balance to be maintained. Our society is not maintaining it. There weren't any masculists countering the feminists, and we've allowed virtually all the sliders to get pushed one way, some of them (like drugging boys and telling them they can't play games) to ridiculous extents.

Chivalry is nice. It's a pleasant fiction that makes life more enjoyable for all. But when the chivalrists are all pushing one way, and the feminists are all pushing one way, and nobody is pushing the other way, we screw things up. We create a bad deal. Then our society stops working. Birth rates fall. Marriage rates fall. The fundamental business of keeping the human race going — which is the deal between men and women — falls off the tracks. In case you haven't noticed, we have a train wreck in this area.

If you're in favor of pushing the "women in the miltary" slider back to zero, what slider are you willing to move the other way? It's time to start asking that question.


39 posted on 05/17/2004 8:27:27 PM PDT by Nick Danger (If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
What women want:

48 posted on 05/18/2004 6:15:44 AM PDT by Monty22
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Women are heroic for just being women

This is precisely the mentality that has led to today's self-centered "I am a goddess" selfish women. Just existing as a certain sex is heroic? Please.

And men most certainly could do childbirth if they wanted to. This article is lame.

50 posted on 05/18/2004 11:16:05 AM PDT by Lizavetta (Savage is right - extreme liberalism is a mental disorder.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Raising a family is beyond the courage of most men.

B.S. So men don't raise families?

58 posted on 05/18/2004 9:32:11 PM PDT by IDontLikeToPayTaxes
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