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"what if a tougher Patriot Act saves more lives than it might hurt? I'd like to have a future to enjoy my freedom in."

The future you describe is devoid of freedom. Let me ask you this: what good is life if you're not allowed to live? When in doubt, consult the New Hampshire state motto.

"There's no place on earth that exercises REAL freedom, anyway - I'm sure there's a law somewhere against eating a peanut butter sandwich on the sidewalk somewhere in the U.S."

The US Constitution is a statement of ideals - something towards which to work. Just because we haven't reached the ideal state of liberty doesn't mean we ought to stop trying. The goals it sets forth are more than worth of our time, energy, and lives for a thousand years and more.

"'Course, I wouldn't trust Dems with Patriot. Or Libertarians, for that matter. Too much in common there. They're both loyal to a country that doesn't exist."

Libertarians simply believe in freedom for all, regardless of the consequences. Dems... don't seem to have any coherent beliefs at the moment, but some of them do seem to be coming around on the traditionally conservative tenet of getting government off our backs. I'm still at a loss for how it is that so many people calling themselves conservatives (not meant to be a personal attack on you, but rather a general comment) are pro- big government, pro- police state tactics, and pro- nearly absolute executive authority since 9/11. If the beliefs held by conservatives were truly so flaky as to be blown away in a single attack on this country, then perhaps they were no more than passing whims to begin with.

Oh well, at least the ACU is still pushing for what I've always considered to be 'conservative' values.

The US Constitution is a statement of ideals - something towards which to work.

What?! The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Nothing is above it other than force of the people. Calling it a "statement of ideals" and "something towards which to work" diminishes it to some creed that would be a good idea to follow if we can or if circumstances allow, not as the ruling set of laws in our country.

-"Libertarians simply believe in freedom for all, regardless of the consequences. Dems... don't seem to have any coherent beliefs at the moment, but some of them do seem to be coming around on the traditionally conservative tenet of getting government off our backs. I'm still at a loss for how it is that so many people calling themselves conservatives (not meant to be a personal attack on you, but rather a general comment) are pro- big government, pro- police state tactics, and pro- nearly absolute executive authority since 9/11. If the beliefs held by conservatives were truly so flaky as to be blown away in a single attack on this country, then perhaps they were no more than passing whims to begin with."-

In a fight for survival, shouldn't we consider those things that increase our chances to survive? I despise big government, but security is one of the few things I think government should handle. They don't handle it well because they've got too much on their plate (and too many of my precious tax dollars to dine on). Take away all the social-cultural issues, and there might be focus.