What did leaders expect in war - a rose garden?

St. Louis Post-Dispatch | 05/07/2004 | Bill McClellan

[FITZ]

I don't see much, if any, difference between the defenders of these atrocities on this thread and the perpetrators themselves.

I think that's an easy enough reaction from the comfort of our living rooms --- but imagine yourself 21 years old in Iraq where conditions are miserable and you are dealing with prisoners and you and they full well understand if they had captured you instead, you'd be horribly tortured and killed, your body dragged through the streets and a crowd cheering. Imagine yourself faced with Saddam's thugs who despise you for bringing down their leader, a man they would do anything to keep in power --- it's not right what the some of those guards did --- it wasn't professional and there will be investigations done, reputations and careers destroyed over this --- but to really understand what took place, I think we would have to have been there.

[R. Scott]

Much better.
We agree that the detainees are not eligible for POW status. I still haven’t seen anything official that would back up this: “Unlike the detainees from Afghanistan, the Iraqi detainees are to be considered as POWs and entitled to the appropriate GCs, until otherwise determined by the appropriate authority.”

Just to mention it, the same humanitarian treatment applies to the Guantanomo pen and every jail in the US.

If it applies - legally - to every jail in the US it’s a law that is being violated on a regular basis.

I will ask you a question. What are the lower ranking soldiers - both officer, NCO and enlisted - supposed to do when ordered to make life miserable for the prisoners? One or two at a time can get away with refusing if they are close to rotation. If all were to refuse it would be mutiny, and the penalties for mutiny in a combat zone are severe.

[spunkets]

" If it applies - legally - to every jail in the US it’s a law that is being violated on a regular basis."

It's not at all common in jails to find this kind of treatment."What are the lower ranking soldiers - both officer, NCO and enlisted - supposed to do when ordered to make life miserable for the prisoners?"

That depends on the details of what making life miserable means.

" the penalties for mutiny in a combat zone are severe."

If the order involves an illegal action there are also penalties. If that illegal action is wrong, evil..., the penalty is loss of honor. Note Col. Williams? protected his troops by accepting all responsibility for his actions. He first chastized his subordinates for amateur actions, then ordered all personnel to leave/ stay out of it, as he engaged in more pro(he did know what he was doing) action that was illegal. He protected everyone, but his own self. Thus retaining his honor.

[spunkets]

That was LTC West. (CRS)

[R. Scott]

That was one brave and unusual Lieutenant Colonel. Not many would have put their troops before their career.