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To: xzins
Latest word from the field is that the armored hummers are not effective against the RPGs and bombs that are killing them.

Well its better than nothing and if the Humvees can be made quickly until bigger stuff can be made, then they have a good plan.

Heavy armor takes more time to build. Give them the up armored humvees in the meantime.

25 posted on 05/08/2004 9:01:45 AM PDT by ColdSteelTalon
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To: ColdSteelTalon
We could do better.
28 posted on 05/08/2004 9:18:32 AM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
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To: ColdSteelTalon
Textron gets order for armored vehicles
29 posted on 05/08/2004 9:23:34 AM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
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To: ColdSteelTalon; Cannoneer No. 4
The problem, as I understand it, is that they are sending ARMORED units to Iraq and telling them to leave their ARMORED VEHICLES back home in favor of the LIGHTER HUMMERS.

This is NOT SPECULATION on my part.

It costs much, much more to bring tanks, bradleys, etc., instead of hummers. Fuel, parts, track, etc., is extremely costly.
30 posted on 05/08/2004 9:35:17 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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To: ColdSteelTalon
We don't need to make heavier armor. We have gobs of the stuff sitting around in warehouses stateside. We even have quite a bit prepositioned near the theater (Kuwait, Diego e.g.). A year into the war, the idea that we are restricted by 72 hour deployability in C-130 specs is getting a bit ripe.

I consider the worry expressed by the thread in some respects legitimate - it is indeed crazy to expect zero casualties - but in the end it is a straw man argument. One side constructs the worst possible argument for a proposition that it can find, and finds a few people advancing it for ulterior motives. That side then argues against that weakest argument instead of against the best one. This decides nothing.

What is really going on here in a wider sense is that methods of propaganda and ideological politics have infected force planning. This is at least a dozen years old, and by now it is a serious problem within the military.

Arguments have been advanced against the heavy army for that long, and are still being advanced, that are based on shallow thinking and slogans and pet theories about the future of warfare. Significant investments have been made in these slogans. Budget fights among services, large future projects, institutional power of various sets, and military careers have all flocked around the proposition, "the heavy army is a cold war dinosaur fit only to fight the Warsaw Pact on the north German plain".

And it simply isn't so.

The old army was then admonished to become "expeditionary", to become deployable at a moment's notice, to get light and flexible and fast, to shorten its logistical tail, etc. And along with all this came force changes that are largely atmospheric in their relation to these largely imaginary objectives. Wheels not tracks. Hummers not Brads. Deployability by air rather than by ship.

In the first few moments of a conflict, these abilities are assets for a portion of the force. It makes sense to have light airborne units and Marines that are this deployable - though the Marines have known for a long time you also need to back that up with some heavy stuff, to keep combined arms effects. But the basic picture of what the army would do that was involved was not correct. And the basic attitude toward heavy armor and its uses was also not correct.

As a fact, we fight major wars with 6 months or more of diplomatic preparation, not 72 hours. We fight in the same places not for days but for years. The threat uses RPGs and mines and mortars; we are lucky they don't have better.

And the reality is heavy armor is decidedly useful against these enemies. The 3rd ID went to Baghdad in record time because of it. We were told urban fighting would be an infantry leading knife fight, but they took Baghdad in days at trivial cost, while slaughtering large numbers of light irregulars doing so.

After the peak combat phase it remains useful. Pinpoint direct HE is useful, mobile MG firepower is useful, protection from snipers and nearby IEDs is extremely useful, and protection in addition from RPGs, while gravy, is a good thing to have available in many situations.

All of this could have been predicted and in fact was. The Israelis know it, for example. But those saying so were not listened to, because they seemed to stand in the way of the whole light deployable etc plan. Which every other branch of service had already invested in, ideologically or in sloganeering terms.

Rumsfeld bought into this because he was told it was so by practically everybody. Even the leaders of the army during the Clinton era transitioned to those willing to go along with this slogan driven campaign, to accomodate the pressures being put on the heavy army to get rid of its internal institutional knowledge and instead follow the new slogan driven directives. Light forces within the army rode this internal-external power field to careerist dominance. Rummy is a national treasure, but on this subject he has naturally followed the bulk of the expert advice he received.

It is just a mistake. A honest one, a typical peacetime one. Planners think AB and C will be the critical matters in the next war, it comes along and in reality it is C, L and Z. Simple mistakes just get noticed and corrected. Institutions are healthy when they can do this, when ideological creeds do not destroy ability to recognize such things and adapt to them.

What we are seeing with the Hummer story is resistence to learning and adapting, being overridden by reality, from the bottom up. Soldiers that did not have much protection simply went and got it. We had Spec 4s prowling Iraqi junkyards for sheet metal, and PFCs filling sand bags to line the floors of their trucks. We have junior officers signing 6 figure contracts with Iraqi metal dealers to weld extra plate onto their vehicles. And we have units fighting each other to get hold of uparmored rather than plain Hummers, fighting over whether they rotate stateside with their units or stay, etc.

Anybody who likes can pretend to decry the process. But it is a straw man to pretend it is driven by pols here, or by veiled defeatism, or anything of the sort. Our men in the field are doing it. Their higher ups are being dragged along. And the result is certainly not optimal. Uparmored Hummers aren't that much better protected and they strain the suspension etc. Meanwhile, tons of heavy armor we've had all the time in the world to deploy, that our men are trained to use, has already been paid for long since and is sitting around being inventoried.

It is not being used because using it would validate a future role for it that the sloganeers are still resisting. But this is a poor reason. Ideas about the likely future ways we will fight are meant to help us adapt our fighting methods. If instead they prevent our doing so, they are not entirely helpful. If the whole process occurred in a basically professional and technocratic atmosphere, through chains of command, this would be relatively easy to recognize and act upon.

Such institutional knowledge is resisted as hidebound and unwilling to change. Slogans and the shallow thinking they bring are one way of promoting change and overriding objections. Sometimes that may be necessary. But it has a downside, which is inability to recognize when the old conventional wisdom is simply right, and revolutionaries have thrown a baby out with some bathwater.

Heavy armor is such a baby. We should stop squabbling about it, accept the fact, and go get him.

33 posted on 05/08/2004 9:51:48 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: ColdSteelTalon
"Well its better than nothing and if the Humvees can be made quickly until bigger stuff can be made, then they have a good plan."

Unfortunately, the up-armored Humvees are not that great a plan. They have limited off road capability due to their increased weight. As such, they travel on roads where they become relatively easy to target with command detonated booby traps and RPG's. And despite the increased armor protection the Humvee cannot withstand either type of attack.

What is happening is Congress and others are criticizing hte Army for not having a force structure designed to occupy a defeated country. The Army with its limited funds created a force structure to win wars instead of being a police force. What would you father have an Army that is capable of winning wars or one that can't fight wars but is good at playing police force?
35 posted on 05/08/2004 10:02:17 AM PDT by Poodlebrain
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