Posted on 05/07/2004 11:05:44 AM PDT by cgk
I beg to differ with Mona about this. I think that, given the circumstances, 99% of our soldiers would do exactly what was done in these pictures.
These things were not done by accident. It wasn't like "Oops! We piled up a bunch of naked bodies! Somebody take a picture!" These things were done for a purpose. The purpose was to humiliate and degrade the prisoners. Presumably we were trying to extract information, but it looks like some of the guards were getting their jollies as well.
But given the fact that these soldiers were in a country they do not understand, guarding people who they loathe, in an prison environment specifically designed to be Hell-on-Earth, it is not surprising that they were willing to follow orders. The soldiers were told that there was a reason for what they were doing, and were only too happy to carry the orders out.
Anybody who thinks any different is deluding themselves.
The problem is with the people giving the orders. The problem is with degradation and humiliation as a mechanism of interrogation. Using such methods means that we resign ourselves to having pictures like this splashed across the media of the world. Surely nobody thought these pictures could be supressed indefinitely. The problem is that somebody, somewhere, decided that the information extracted was worth the price, and that person was not some low-level soldier with a leash.
This whole business is a complete disaster. It was a disaster by design. Somebody seriously screwed up in the formulation of our policy, and that somebody should have to pay.
Get real, buddy. This was done on purpose...
1) Who was the IDIOT who took the photographs?
The IDIOT who took the photographs was the soldier whose job it was to take the photographs. These things were done to humiliate the prisoners. The documentation was part of the humiliation. The pictures were then no doubt used to further break down the prisoner or to show to others as a warning of what will happen to them if they do not cooperate.
2) How did said IDIOT get a camera into a secure facility?
The IDIOT was issued the camera and instructed to use it. You don't get thousands of photographs like this by accident, you know.
3) Who was the IDIOT that passed the photos along to the press?
The IDIOT was any of hundreds of soldiers who knew what was going on. A certain small irreducable number of people are not going to go along with such a thing. One of those people brought these photos to the press, as was inevitable.
Whoever is responsible, they did, among other things, provide aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war.
Whoever was in charge and thought these photographs could be kept out of the press for any length of time is a complete moron and should not be in charge of digging latrines. You take pictures like this, they will wind up on the front page of the NY Times, as surely as the sun rising in the East.
That is scary, but I guess they view this Biblically, which pretty much allows anything, end-times and all, you know.
Arabs aren't God's people to them, they're, you know, Lucifer's people.
So dead Arab men, women and children are good, God's will and preordained.
Of course, other Christian sects don't quite see it this way, so we'll have to see how the whole thing pans out.
Over the weekend, I was talking to a lady friend of mine as I said is that a shame about these horrific pictures of the prisoners, as the conservative “FOX” news watcher lady replied, I don't care. I said did you know that there were more embarrassing pictures showing the American guards ordering the naked guys to masturbate? The respectable lady answered me “I hope the American guard ordered them to swallow each others come”! I know these words are too descriptive to even mention in this forum, but I wanted to illustrate the extent of hate that came out of a respectable god fearing, otherwise moral lady. I am ashamed of these kinds of people. Thank god the president had more humanity in him to face up to this shame that was brought upon all of us. His comments were loaded with high moral standards and dignity for fellow human being. Mona Charen, an ultra conservative right winger did not defend such action, and wrote a column condemning such shame. The rest of the political hacks, like Haninity, Limbaugh,…are all simply defending this barbaric behaviors.
But again, it goes to the fact, that Arabs/Moslems, and that includes Arab women and Arab children are considered vermin, and therefore not accorded the same dignity of other peoples, at least that's the impression I get.
The one thing that is true, and also holds out much hope, is that the majority of Americans and people in the world, who are Christian, don't take this view.
There are many people, like the woman you described, for sure, but I don't think they constitute a majority, at least I hope they don't.
You're doing the right thing, you're standing up for the right things, and that's all you really have the power to do, if you're just a regular Joe or Jane. I don't want this kind of stuff committed in my name, end of story.
And by the way attempts to dismiss this as having nothing to do with pornography are not very convincing, if you ask me. Had this been actual torture to extract what was believed to be information on some 'grave and gathering' threat, there wouldn't be nearly the disgust that's out there now. The smiles on the perverts faces tell the whole frigging story, don't they?
This is the biggest bunch of goobers to come out of the woods since the family in Deliverance. I bet if there's some audio, some goober, somewhere is demanding a squeal. What a pack of low-life losers! Imagine wearing the Uniform proudly and having to contend with these people as your 'fellows in arms.' They must be hurling non stop.
In the post-WW II trials of the Nazis in charge of the camps, testimony came out regarding a Sgt. Moll at Auschwitz.
"Surviving prisoners watching from blocks nearby remembered how for a time the signal for the orderlies to pour the [Zyclon B] crystals down the vents was given by a Sergeant Moll. ''Na gib ihnen shon zu fressen'' (''All right, give 'em something to chew on'') he would laugh and the crystals would be poured through the openings which would then be sealed."
Now I am fully aware that what was done to the "detainees" in Iraq was not of the same nature as what was done to the Jews in Auschwitz. But I can't help but notice the same willingness to follow orders in "our" guards.
If there were simple "following orders" behavior at the grunt and gruntess level, it would have been very curious orders indeed. My suspicion is that the softening up procedures did not include the homoerotic humiliation we have now seen, but that this was added at some level, perhaps at the immediate supervision level which was so loose that it could have been private contractors or MI people. It is also possible that this was the proclivities of the grunts on the scene.
And like you, I want to know the etiology of these photos. That will come out at the court martials, I suppose.
I think that Zell Miller said it best. To quote:
“Mr. President, here we go again, here we go again. Rushing to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Pushing and pulling and shoving and leaping over one another to assign blame and point the finger at America the Terrible. Lining up in long lines at the microphones to offer apologies to those poor, pitiful Iraqi prisoners.
“Of course, I do not condone all the things that went on in that prison, but I for one, Mr. President, refuse to join in this national Act of Contrition over it.
“Those who are wringing their hands and shouting so loudly for “heads to roll” over this seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that someone’s head HAS rolled - that of another innocent American brutally murdered by terrorists.
“Why is it? Why is it that there’s more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all? Why is it that some in this country still don’t get that we are at war? A war against terrorists who are plotting to kill us every day. Terrorists who will murder Americans at any time any place any chance they get.
“And yet here we are, America on its knees, in front of our enemy, begging for their forgiveness over the mistreatment of prisoners. Showing the enemy and the world once again how easily America can get sidetracked and how easily America can turn against it self.
“Yes, some of our soldiers went too far with their interrogation tactics and clearly were not properly trained to handle such duty. But the way to deal with this is with swift and sure punishment, and immediate and better training. There also needs to be more careful screening of who it is we put in these kinds of sensitive situations.
“And no one wants to hear this, Mr. President and I’m reluctant to say it. But there should also be some serious questioning of having male and female soldiers serving side by side in these kinds of military missions.
“But instead, I worry that the HWA - the Hand-Wringers of America - will add to their membership and continue to bash our country ad nauseam. And in doing so, hand over more innocent Americans to the enemy on a silver platter.
“So I stand with Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma, who stated that he’s “more outraged by the outrage” than by the treatment of those prisoners. More outraged by the outrage. It’s a good way of putting it. That’s exactly how this Senator from Georgia feels.”
I do not condone the actions of the servicemen and women at the prison. But, I do not blame them for their actions. I blame their leadership who were apparently absent while these actions were taking place. My initial comment stands. Mona, shut up.
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