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To: Ronzo
'To the contrary, a good political system "should mobilize some parts of human nature to rein in other parts."
'The framers of the Constitution took great interest in human nature and "by almost any measure of human well-being, Western democracies are better," he [Pinker] says.'

This is all well and good, but how is a political system going to suceed where religion, who's main purpose is to "reign in" those parts of human nature we don't particuallarly care for, has largely failed?

Our Constitution, properly honored, can use the rule of law to enforce compliance. Religion can't.

What does Pinker have to offer that the great religious traditions have overlooked?

Perhaps a legitimacy to libertarian social policies coupled to constitutional restraints?

Also, wasn't our political system based on values and beliefs fostered by mulit-centuries of Greco-Roman-Christian culture that both highly values individuals, but is quite realistic as to the true nature of man?

Yep, and that system of prohibitionary laws has failed us. Decrees on enforcing morality do not work on free men, whether put forth by socialists or moralists. We must find a better way to control 'sin'..

Is it our political system that has formed us, or did we form our political system?

We definitely formed a unique free Republic with our Constitution. Now it is being violated wholesale at every level of government. Time to restore our original concept, imo.

In other words, could it not be said that our Western political systems are better because we had a better cultural foundation upon which to build them?

You bet. I have no argument with our religious culture, -- until it intrudes in politics.

23 posted on 05/06/2004 10:31:20 AM PDT by tpaine (In their arrogance, a few infinitely shrewd imbeciles attempt to lay down the 'law' for all of us.)
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To: tpaine
Our Constitution, properly honored, can use the rule of law to enforce compliance. Religion can't.

How can the constitution be "properly honored" without people who understand the metaphysics behind the concept of honor? And what instution is there on earth that has a better notion of the concept of "honor" than the Christian church? (Or perhaps Buddhism?) I've yet to see a study where the concept of "honor" is shown to be innate in a person's nature. Such a concept needs to be learned, and religion has been the best source of education in regards to that particular concept.

To "enforce compliance" a government has to take a very pro-active and intrusive look into people's affairs. If they don't, then they are best reactionary, which is what we currently have. They only way to "enforce compliance" is nothing short of a 1984 "Big Brother" type system. The means contradict the ends you seek, a true libertarian system.

Decrees on enforcing morality do not work on free men, whether put forth by socialists or moralists. We must find a better way to control 'sin'..

To control sin, one must first understand sin and where it comes from. I have yet to see any political system or philosophy that has even so much of a clue as to what 'sin' is, let alone where it comes from.

(For now, lets simply define sin as the 'bad' things people do to each other, either out of control, anger, hate, or just boring old insensitivity...though there's a lot more to the definition that just causing harm...)

And yet most religions, even the ancient religions of the Far East, like Hinduism and Buddhism, all have a rock solid concept of what sin is, where it comes from, and how it can be controlled.

Sin is born within a man's mind, or soul. To properly understand human nature, the idea of a 'soul' is a must, whether or not it can be tested for scientifically. Even in many anceint, pre-Enlightenment phiolosophies, the idea of a 'soul' was considered a necessary condition.

Christianity used to teach about the soul, and once one could understand that concept, one could understand sin, and then be able to control it. I'm greatly simplyfying the process here, but these are the basic steps. Hinduism, Budhism, and various other religions all have this as a core teaching, though the terminology (sin, soul) may be different.

But the important point to remember is this: sin, in order to be effectively controlled, must be controlled within a person. It has to be stopped before it turns into a cognitive idea. If the idea forms, then the battle is already lost, even if the idea is not acted on immediately. All the government can do, any government, is clean up the mess that was casued by it.

Christianity has been superior in regards to controlling sin when it use to give a true and balanced teaching on it's origins and means to prevent it. Now, most Christian churches just teach that sin is "bad," but do no longer empower a person to be able to effectively control it. Some churches do try, but they seem to be in a minority.

Our government worked, and continues to work, because a great many of the people (native Americans necessarily excluded...) all had the same basic ideas about sin, morality, family, government, etc. As we embrace the idiotic notion of "multi-culturalism," we are destroying the ties that bind in the name of diversity. But at the end of the day, we suffer for it, rather than become more "enlightened."

46 posted on 05/06/2004 1:46:21 PM PDT by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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