Lets separate fact from fiction with respect to the U.S. mistreatment allegations? (VANITY)

None | 5/4/04 | The Conservator

[TheConservator]

I have been reading a lot of back and forth on various threads regarding the alleged mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. Most of it is little more than emotional ranting, with very little factual material offered to back it up.

I thought it would be useful to start a thread for the purpose of collecting, and discussing, the actual facts related to these claims, for the purpose of sorting out:

--What has been proven or admitted;

--What has been plausibly alleged but not proven;

--What spurious claims have been positively debunked.

It is my hope that posters will try to confine themselves to the facts, and keep the emotive flaming to a minimum.

As I understand it, as of the moment:

--Various US soldiers have apparently "mistreated" Iraqi prisoners, as documented by photos that have been released.

--The authenticity of the photos does not seem to be disputed.

--The photos do not document or suggest any "phyisical mistreatment" (beatings, rape, or other actions leading to physical injuries). They do document acts intended to humiliate and distress (i.e., "psychological mistreatment").

--There have been allegations that US troops have physically mistreated Iraqi prisoners, but as far as I know, no one has offered evidence that really establishes that this has occurred, even on an isolated basis. Further, it has been suggested that any acts of physical mistreatment that have occurred my have been performed by inadequately supervised Iraqi guards hired to assist in detaining the prisoners.

--There are allegations that the so-called "psychological mistreatment" were not isolated instances, but occurred as a result of orders transmitted in some fashion down a chain of command. As far as I know, no one has offered specifics or details as to who allegedly gave such orders, to whom, to do what exactly, or the like.

--The US government and military have publicly repudiated such acts of "psychological mistreatment" as appear to be documented in the photos, and pledged to investigate and take action against those responsible for causing it to occur.

--There are also photographs circulating that purport to document British mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. The authenticity of these photos have, as far as I know, not been established but are hotly disputed.

--Most recently, certain unidentified Indian nationals have alleged that the US military personnel "enslaved" and "mistreated" them while they were employed by the military to provide assistance to the US occupation force. The nature of the claims made, and the fact that the persons making them have not publicly identified themselves, suggest (to me at least) that these claims are not really credible.

Please discuss and post links.

[TheConservator]

My first vanity posting. I hope it is an acceptable one.

[drjimmy]

This is the most reasoned take I've seen on FR, or anywhere else for that matter, on the entirety of the current situation.

[Cogadh na Sith]

The pictures were of butch lezzies enjoying sexually abusing men in S/M style domination.

Not military nor professional.

Just disgusting. The offenders should be dragged out in front of an Iraqi audience and shot to undue the damage and dishonor they have brought.

[Spok]

These abuse charges are a political football. First we'll get saturated with details, confirmed or not. The second stage will be linking the abuses to the Bush administration, which is the whole point of publicizing them in the first place. We'll have the liberals, in lock step with the ACLU as usual, shrieking for relief for the Iraqis and Muslim's in general, as they become the victims of right wing inspired American aggression. This will get more and more shrill, until the next attack on American soil-which is an absolute certainty.

[SMARTY]

Lots of stuff has been thrown at the wall. We will see what sticks. The photos are hard to dispute and truth to tell, if the US gets out of the area without even one accusation of bad behavior on the part of troops, well...that would be pretty unbelievable in itself. That said, all the allegations (images included) must be proved authentic. And if they are, those responsible must be immediately and PUBLICLY punished to the fullest measure.

Remember, NO American in or out of uniform would condone bad behavior on the part of occupation personnel toward unarmed detainees. No one over there has a right to make me look bad,...NO ONE! Americans expect good treatment for their own prisoners and have a right to that expectation only if the same is accorded to Iraqis.

[swarthyguy]

First, these aren't allegations.

Taquba's report is a military report describing what actually happened.

There's no denial of that from anyone. just the severity and the breadth of it.

Question, how widespread and how up the command chain was it known and approved. And by whom.

[b4its2late]

On the flip side, where was the outrage of the 4 US civilians were killed, burned, dismembered, dragged through the streets, then hung on a bridge by the Iraqis? Where was the outrage and condemnation from democrats and from others in the middle east? Non existent.

[MHGinTN]

Good idea, this! Here's a bump and a promise to try and keep up.

[fooman]

Sure we should investigate WHY this happened and nuke these ladies. But honestly, this appears college kid stuff as opposed to hard torture.

What gets me is the moral quivalence here.

[ContemptofCourt]

The following are some of the key excerpts from the report prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba on alleged abuse of prisoners by members of the 800th Military Police Brigade at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad. The report was ordered by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Joint Task Force-7, the senior U.S. military official in Iraq, following persistent allegations of human rights abuses at the prison.

(B)etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated byseveral members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF).

In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses

a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

(T)he intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.

The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law.

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www.msnbc.com

[MHGinTN]

And here's an FR thread that is apropos to the discussion: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1129333/posts

[TheConservator]

Can you post a link?

[tjwmason]

I know a little more about the related issue of the British pictures.

The Armed Forces Minister made a statement to the House of Commons this afternoon, in which he stated that the investigation is being carried out by the Royal Military Police. There have been many claims that these photographd are fakes (even the B.B.C. is reporting these claims), however, the R.M.P. will proceed with the assumption that they are real until information suggests otherwise. If they are proved to be real, then the perpetrators will be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

The shadow Secretary of State for Defence (i.e., the Conservative Party spokesman on defence, F.W.I.W. the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill) in answering supported this policy. Furthermore, he asked the Minister to re-iterate that even if these are real, then they represent the smallest minority rather than the typical British soldier. He drew attention to the fact that the allegations have been made against the Queen Lancashire Regiment, and that this regiment is over 300 years old and fought at Waterloo, Gallipolli, and the D-Day Landings in Normandy, in fact they carry more battle honours than any other British regiment. He also stated that H.M. forces are working in the most difficult of circumstances, and are doing a most magnificent job.

At this stage it is very difficult to differentiate between truth and fiction. On one level the damage has been done, what ever happens now as regards truth or fiction, the Americans and the British have been branded as torturers. On another level, the truth matters greatly, and therefore we must allow the relevant Military Police bodies to investigate what is true and what is false among the allegations. This may well take longer than we would like, but this is an inevitable reality of investigations under the circumstances presently in Iraq.

[kissmyconservativebutt]

We make them stand naked and put them in positions that "look like" they are engaging in gay sex. They put bullets in our heads, slit our throuats, or dismember our bodies and hang us from bridges or drag us behind cars.

Screw the arabs. Yes, I am awaiting flak from all of you who think my lack of an arguement shows how shallow I am, etc., etc. Remove the soldiers involved and discharge them from the military (general discharge). This obviously happened, so deal with it. As far as arab outrage goes... Gee, there weren't upset before? Everything was fine before this? They would love us more if we didn't make enemy combatents take their clothes off? Whatever.

[O6ret]

Political football or not, the charges must be dealt with quickly and fairly and openly.

There has clearly been a failure in leadership at several levels. I don't think it raises to the level of the Commander in Chief--although some will claim that--but most assuredly there are many in the chain of command who are as culpable as the purported perpetrators.

The conditions in Iraq, both physical and emotional, were ripe for this sort of activity. The in-country command structure should have recognized this and taken preventive measures (training, increased surveillance, greater oversight, etc) to insure that the individuals charged with keeping order and discipline in the prisons maintained their sense perspective and adhered to the letter of the law.

Unfortunately, the true consequences will not be political. Would that they were. Pity the plight of the next American soldier(s) who are unfortunate enough to be captured.

[kissmyconservativebutt]

If what you say is true then that changes the shape of all the allegations. Tell them that as soon as they stop mistreating ours, we'll stop mistreating theirs.

[mikegi]

I see a fundamental difference between this sadistic behavior and the case months ago of the Colonel who threatened the captured Iraqi policeman. He was after immediately useful information. These people were playing sick games with the detainees. What's disturbing to me is that one of the main offenders was a prison guard here in the States.

[kissmyconservativebutt]

On one level the damage has been done, what ever happens now as regards truth or fiction, the Americans and the British have been branded as torturers.

We were just the great satan before, right? "Death to America" wasn't literal before. But now that we stripped their detainees...oh, watch out. Now they really hate us.

[Shery]

It will probably be a while before some of this is found to be false, or at least hyped, although probably there is some truth. We'll have to wait.

[MHGinTN]

And here's another pertinent thread at FR: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1129450/posts

As to number ten above, it appears that allegations b, d, e, g in the first group, and e, f, and k in the second are actionable or ought to be actionable. The other allegations are useful means to 'soften up terrorist detainees for vital questioning.