Skip to comments.
Military Commanders’ Decisions in Fallujah Overridden by Politicians (CONFIRMED)
Fox Live Broadcast / USA Today Interview ^
| 5/3/04
| Jim Michaels
Posted on 05/03/2004 4:53:43 PM PDT by elfman2
click here to read article
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 201-220, 221-240, 241-260 ... 301-312 next last
To: A Jovial Cad
Well, I was not particularly impressed by the insults he provided in the beginning.
They were not quite up to the standards you would expect from "our man-in-the-field, Super-Secret Agent".
In fact I don't appreciate insults at all. Not even your condescending remarks to me. I don't come here to freerepublic to insult or to be insulted.
I liked the post because it articulated and explained some of the points I wanted to make, but did not have the time for:
That the OVERRIDING strategic goal is to achieve a stable transition in Iraq, and hence many tactical decisions flow from that.
Now, I am worried about the situation. You would be a fool not to be worried. Fallujah, Najaf and now the prisoner abuse scandal, has not exactly made for a fantastic couple of weeks, have they?
But, I still want to emphasize that the people on the ground, be it Conway, Brennan Byrne, Bremer, Abizaid et al. as well as the CIC, DOES have far superiour knowledge of the situation, and I trust their judgement and good intentions to do anything possible to achieve the OVERALL objective (In which Fallujah is only one tactical battlespace).
Have there been mistakes made? Sure. Will more mistakes be made? Absolutely.
But, I think it is important to keep in mind what the real goal of the military actions at the moment in Iraq are. A story regarding lt. Col Brennan Byrne in the early days of the Fallujah siege comes to mind. The people in his batallion had actually grown moustaches in order to go "win the hearts and minds" of the Falujahns (The moustaches have now come off).
On a marine base somewhere outside Fallujah, there is huge stocks of frisbees and soccerballs that the marines brought with them. The goal of the marines in Fallujah was to go in and help with the reconstruction. They are trying to prepare the ground in order for them to achieve this objective.
The jihades have been very succesful in driving a wedge between the Iraqi people and the US military. This is very unfortunate. The Marines are trying to turn the table and drive a wedge between the Jihadees and the population. Will it work? I sure hope so.
As for jihadees dancing in Fallujah. They even danced in the Fallujah soccerfield claiming victory even as they buried several hundreds of themselves. I guess, they would still be dancing even if a third of the population was killed off.
They are nuts.
I appologize for my rambling thoughts.
Cheers.
To: FreeReign
"Me: -- The military doesn't take orders from Mr. Bremer. " You follow the order of Mr. Bremer when the CICs word is filtered down to you that you cooperate with him. If his wishes morph into your orders, whatever the path, you take orders from Bremer.
222
posted on
05/04/2004 5:14:02 AM PDT
by
elfman2
To: Patton@Bastogne
CREDIT the USMC and their superb Commander-in-Chief and Rumsfeld and Chenny for their foresight in NOT stumbling (a la Krinton the Oval Office) into a political and military castrophe. Maybe I missed something. This is what I get from this sentence and the entire post you made: the Marines would have fallen into a military catastrophe had they went into Fallujah, and thatnk God for the politicians getting involved?
Time is on AMERICA'S side here.
Say that around November if we don't make some headway here, i.e. taking care of Fallujah. The Marines could have already done this had it not been for politicos sticking their claws where they don't belong.
To: lentulusgracchus
Furthermore, just to quibble, the people designing last year's operation wanted more boots, but Bush and Rumsfeld kept sending their eggs back until the operational planners sized the invasion the way Bush wanted it -- cheap. You are right on with that comment.
To: WOSG
"Fine. But this is talking about the ceasefire, not the Marine's creating the "Fallujah Brigade". Nobody has disputed that the earlier ceasefire was a political call, IIRC." Really, I read them all the opposite.
Politicians preventing the Marines from a large scale offensive is all that Im focused on. It was a forced cease fire that they could not lift.
When the Marines were not allowed to fight the way they believe is right, they did just about what I speculated the other night with you. They said screw this, prematurely brought in this force thats only appropriate for policing a pacified city, and pulled back.
I acknowledged many times that the Fallujah Brigade was a Marine creation. I have little problem with it as long as the Marines are allowed to resume the offensive. They can lead with it and have it whipped out in the first 30 minutes for all I care. Just unhook their leash.
225
posted on
05/04/2004 5:42:41 AM PDT
by
elfman2
To: McGavin999
Sorry, I don't have a lot of patience with people who can only see the bad. I am seeing some pretty negative things going on in Iraq, but I have to agree with you. Bush has done some amazing work in a very short period of time. I am just concerned now that we have politicians getting involved in battles for cities. We cannot do that. It never worked in the past until after a war had been won and then the military had to be 'reigned' in. Until there is absolute victory, you have to let the military do what they do best; fight and win wars. They did not clear Fallujah, and now it is apparent, as many of us have said, that the politicos have gotten involved. I do not have faith in our politicians fighting our wars. I do have faith in the military.
Regardless of how many good things Bush has done, if he starts tying the hands of the military, he is making an unwise choice.
To: Miss Marple
The caving of the right, yes, the right, reminds me of the left during Vietnam. Pathetic.
227
posted on
05/04/2004 5:47:57 AM PDT
by
rintense
(Now I know why liberals hate guns... they keep shooting themselves in the foot!)
To: elfman2
"The military is of course always subservient to political objectives"
The military is an instrument used, when necessary, to secure political objectives. End of story!
228
posted on
05/04/2004 5:51:21 AM PDT
by
verity
(A Vote for Kerry is a vote for National Suicide!)
To: LS
See Link I've been trying to figure out what happened and who told whom to do what. Very perplexing.
To: A Jovial Cad; section9; admin
To the extent that this statement *is* true (and I have my doubts), then these soldiers are violating the UCMJ. They should not be giving detailed tactical info like that to *anyone* not cleared for it, and not even then unless they have a Need To Know. When I was in the service, we had this quaint concept called OPSEC-Operational Security. Granted, it wasn't during wartime. But I would think it would be even *more* imperative to observe in a combat situation. Bottom line, your "sources"--assuming for a fraction of a second that they are genuine--are flirting with a trip to a certain government installation located in Kansas if they truly are passing on "info" to a civilian, especially one who likes to bloviate about it on an open website to make himself look special. Do either of them (assuming they exist) know how much you like to publicly brag about the "info" they're supposedly passing on to you? Concur
To: The Bandit
"Politics is what killed over 50,000 soldiers in VN."
That's a fact.
To: LS
"It's your arguments that are ridiculous, and increasingly so with each new post." I find it incredible that someone so articulate could say such a thing. Are perhaps you, like WOSG, under the impression that this is about who created the Fallujah brigade, rather than who ordered the cease fire?
Im only concerned with who ordered the cease fire. I said back in post #1 that, " we now have un-contradicted information on who made the decision to halt the attack on Fallujah." A cease fire which cant be restarted on their own terms is a halting of an attack. Im only focused on the cease fire.
You then passed me this quote that you consider a contradiction, " "Consultations about the new force went to the upper echelons of the US command in Iraq (news - web sites) but not as far as the Pentagon, he said.""
This is speaking of who was consulted" for empowering the Fallujah Brigade.
Its not speaking of who decided to switch off power to the Marine Brigade.
Thats the ceasefire. It prevented their full scale attack on Fallujah, the only way Marines are trained to take a city.
Are we clear now? Have we been arguing about two separate decisions?
232
posted on
05/04/2004 6:08:03 AM PDT
by
elfman2
To: swarthyguy
Bremer by your account "lacks political understanding"..I will add to my "amateur psychoanalysis" the observation that your grandiosity is showing. If people are constantly performing amateur psychoanalysis on you, well , you ought to wonder if something is triggering it. Have a nice day thou who could run the world better than the President, his advisors and Paul Bremer.
233
posted on
05/04/2004 6:27:38 AM PDT
by
cajungirl
(<i>swing low, sweet limousine, comin' fer to Kerry me hoooommmee</i>)
To: verity
"The military is an instrument used, when necessary, to secure political objectives. End of story!" Considering the military to simply be an instrument implies that the decision of how to play it should reside with another. To a very large degree, a military campaign has to be planned from within. Politicians decide on objectives and parameters. The military plans strategies and methods. There is much back and forth between the two, but each has their expertise.
Problems erupt when the military is attempted to be played from the outside like an instrument while in action. Inserting unexpected rules of engagement or objectives can cost more lives as the military scrambles to accomplish an objective that they prepared for with other means. This is indicative of Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, and now Fallujah.
Respecting the militarys autonomy as a division of an organization, subservient to the CIC, is critical to their effectiveness and their future.
234
posted on
05/04/2004 6:28:08 AM PDT
by
elfman2
To: elfman2; verify
"Respecting the militarys autonomy as a division of an organization, subservient to the CIC, is critical to their effectiveness and their future." On second thought, I need to add subservient to the Constitution to that.
235
posted on
05/04/2004 6:35:21 AM PDT
by
elfman2
To: section9
Last night at a rally in Michigan,
President Bush stated to a crowd
of thousands & assembled media
that FALLUJAH & NAJAF will be
dealt with by American forces if
necessary, but we're first giving
Iraqis a chance. His words were
very careful, explicit & clear.
To: verity
The military is an instrument used, when necessary, to secure political objectives. End of story!Succinct, well said.
To: cajungirl
See #236
Did you see/hear this last night
from the President? It was done
verrrrry deliberately...
To: elfman2
Well, we will be serving as the Iraqi Armed Forces. Our Armed Forces are under civilian control and Iraq's are, too. Iraq's civilian government controls us. We volunteered to be controlled.
239
posted on
05/04/2004 7:03:19 AM PDT
by
GraniteStateConservative
(...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
To: txrangerette
Reality timeout...
Last night at a rally in Michigan, President Bush stated to a crowd of thousands & assembled media that FALLUJAH & NAJAF will be dealt with by American forces if necessary, but we're first giving Iraqis a chance. His words were very careful, explicit & clear.
The politician president is in charge of the plan and he explains the plan succinctly -- as it should be -- and it's a good plan too.
Now, back to the propaganda bought into by some on the right -- hook, line and sinker.
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 201-220, 221-240, 241-260 ... 301-312 next last
Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson