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Let's shrink God down to the size of one single book, written by a select set of people whose understanding was that of shepherds and fishermen; let's ignore everything else we've learned about Him from His actual creations, and be sure, while we're at it, never never never to learn any math that might tend to confuse us. Get beyond pre-algebra, and you might get into trouble. You might find yourself running into questions that can't be answered with that single book.

"Bible? We've got a Bible. We don't need ANYTHING else, including open eyelids."

There's no scientific notation if you confine yourself to the cubit. (I'm surprised that there hasn't been a fundamentalist movement to send us back to Biblical weights and measures.) Carbon dating? Now God wouldn't make anything so inconvenient as isotopes. That would confuse us. They're so small we can't see 'em, so we can ignore what they tell us. Those atheist scientists are just trying to do the Devil's work, undermining the faith of true believers--who may have to actually think about their testimony and integrate it with physical reality, if they dare question the doctrine that all true human knowledge is in Just One Book (which was a primer in morality and history, never intended to teach EVERYTHING, but never mind that.)

And those stars, they're just stuck on there. They're not so far away at all if you assume Heaven has to be beyond them. Worlds around them? WHO wants to go looking for a church that has taught, all along, that there are other worlds out there around those faraway suns?

We're gonna spend eternity just floating on clouds playing harps and singing at the Throne. Yes. That's what we want. No family, no marriage, no friendship, no service, no progression. No learning. No making, no doing...just sitting and harping and playing a horn for variety. Yeah, that's a great eternity. Forget the majesty of active volcanic fields and the heinous doctrine of plate tectonics--we won't have any use for that stuff. Forget the joy of falling in love with a kitten, a new baby. Heaven doesn't need any of that stuff--we did mention the cloud thing? You get your own, all to yourself, for eternity! Unless of course you go to that other place.

Ignore the rest of this stuff God made. Can't fit dinosaurs on the cloud you know, so they're of no possible interest.

And the notion that God is always talking to us, telling us more about Himself and His world? Why, that's the most evil thought at all. Just keep going through your prayerbooks and scripted services. Stick to the safe stuff. Don't even venture to try to ask God Himself to help you understand how it all fits together. He might answer, and maybe the answer will require you to do a little work, including (gasp) math, even PHYSICS, and that's just too big a risk to take, isn't it?

Too bad DUers can't see this thread. They think we all are fundamentalists who beat our women and follow the Bible to the letter.

Don't yell at me, I think Creationists are the ultimate in ignorant luddite idiocy. I prefer actual science instead of well worn mumbo jumb from pre-dark ages (lack of) thought.

"...we can ignore what they tell us. Those atheist scientists are just trying to do the Devil's work, undermining the faith of true believers--who may have to actually think about their testimony and integrate it with physical reality..."

Or, as my mother puts it, "now you just shush about all that..." Every question or verbalization of a concept inconsistent with traditional, literal interpretation of scripture is treated as rebelliousness.

What's amazing is there is 99% of the dialogue on their part is not a critical examination or critique of the proposed evidence, but a warning about what "going there" might lead to in terms of our faith and ultimately our morality/behavior. So shush them or use any tactic of debate to deny it, because whether the science is valid or not, if too many thought that way, we'd all just turn into savages!

While I see no reason to lower my standards of morality, my faith did crumble. But, it wasn't due to belief in the evidences of common descent, but a realization that, if they are so ready to ignore truths in the realm of science, then how open are their eyes when it comes to spiritual truths?

Ahh, yes. Another ignorant Darwinian religious fanatic ranting...

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... And somehow this attitude did not hinder them in their commitment to the "scientific method." In fact one of them, Sir Francis Bacon, is credited with formulating and establishing the scientific method! They seem also to have been able to maintain a proper "scientific attitude," for it was these men (Newton, Pasteur, Linnaeus, Faraday, Pascal, Lord Kelvin, Maxwell, Kepler, etc.) whose researches and analyses led to the very laws and concepts of science which brought about our modern scientific age. The mechanistic scientists of the present are dwarfed in comparison to these intellectual giants of the past. Even the achievements of an Einstein (not to mention Darwin!) are trivial in comparison. The real breakthroughs, the new fields, the most beneficial discoveries of science were certainly not delayed (in fact probably were hastened) by the creationist motivations of these great founders of modern science.

And here is a list of some of the IGNORANT, UNSCIENTIFIC, PEA-BRAINED, MORONS, according to Triple Word Score and his ilk:

TABLE I SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINES ESTABLISHED BY CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS
DISCIPLINE	SCIENTIST
ANTISEPTIC SURGERY	JOSEPH LISTER (1827-1912)
BACTERIOLOGY	LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
CALCULUS	ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
CELESTIAL MECHANICS	JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
CHEMISTRY	ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
COMPARATIVE ANATOMY	GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)
COMPUTER SCIENCE	CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
DIMENSIONAL ANALYSIS	LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
DYNAMICS	ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
ELECTRONICS	JOHN AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)
ELECTRODYNAMICS	JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
ELECTRO-MAGNETICS	MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
ENERGETICS	LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
ENTOMOLOGY OF LIVING INSECTS	HENRI FABRE (1823-1915)
FIELD THEORY	MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
FLUID MECHANICS	GEORGE STOKES (1819-1903)
GALACTIC ASTRONOMY	WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)
GAS DYNAMICS	ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
GENETICS	GREGOR MENDEL (1822-1884)
GLACIAL GEOLOGY	LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
GYNECOLOGY	JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)
HYDRAULICS	LEONARDO DA VINCI (1452-1519)
HYDROGRAPHY	MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)
HYDROSTATICS	BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)
ICHTHYOLOGY	LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
ISOTOPIC CHEMISTRY	WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)
MODEL ANALYSIS	LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
NATURAL HISTORY	JOHN RAY (1627-1705)
NON-EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY	BERNHARD RIEMANN (1826- 1866)
OCEANOGRAPHY	MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)
OPTICAL MINERALOGY	DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)
PALEONTOLOGY	JOHN WOODWARD (1665-1728)
PATHOLOGY	RUDOLPH VIRCHOW (1821-1902)
PHYSICAL ASTRONOMY	JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
REVERSIBLE THERMODYNAMICS	JAMES JOULE (1818-1889)
STATISTICAL THERMODYNAMICS	JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
STRATIGRAPHY	NICHOLAS STENO (1631-1686)
SYSTEMATIC BIOLOGY	CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)
THERMODYNAMICS	LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
THERMOKINETICS	HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)
VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY	GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)

TABLE II NOTABLE INVENTIONS, DISCOVERIES OR DEVELOPMENTS BY CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS
CONTRIBUTION	SCIENTIST
ABSOLUTE TEMPERATURE SCALE	LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
ACTUARIAL TABLES	CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
BAROMETER	BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)
BIOGENESIS LAW	LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
CALCULATING MACHINE	CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
CHLOROFORM	JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)
CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM	CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)
DOUBLE STARS	WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)
ELECTRIC GENERATOR	MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
ELECTRIC MOTOR	JOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)
EPHEMERIS TABLES	JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
FERMENTATION CONTROL	LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
GALVANOMETER	JOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)
GLOBAL STAR CATALOG	JOHN HERSCHEL (1792-1871)
INERT GASES	WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)
KALEIDOSCOPE	DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)
LAW OF GRAVITY	ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
MINE SAFETY LAMP	HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)
PASTEURIZATION	LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
REFLECTING TELESCOPE	ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
SCIENTIFIC METHOD	FRANCIS BACON (1561-1626)
SELF-INDUCTION	JOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)
TELEGRAPH	SAMUEL F.B. MORSE (1791-1872)
THERMIONIC VALVE	AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)
TRANS-ATLANTIC CABLE	LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
VACCINATION & IMMUNIZATION	LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)