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To: Taliesan
culture wars are not won through political action but by winning the hearts and minds of the people.

Very true. However, once their hearts are converted, someone has to educate their minds as to *what* God expects of them in the political realm. Regarding which --

Jesus had NO interest in influencing politics ... Jesus had NO interest in reforming society by any method other than a personal devotion to His person and His utterances.

True in a certain sense, but, (a) civilization requires laws and goverment, (b) somebody, somewhere, has got to be the government, (c) government officials can be saved, just as everyone else, and (d) such salvation, if genuine, will cause the said government officals to make more righteous decisions.... hence, a certain amount of social reform WILL take place. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God", yes, but, in the getting of it, righteous governemnt is a nice earthly side effect.

It was His scandalous LACK OF INTEREST in politics and wider culture (plus other things) that got Him in trouble.

Au contraire -- part of the false charges against him involved alleged illegal plotting against the government.

I can't imagine how anybody could read the New Testament and find ANYTHING OTHER than a clear, willful, systematic, proud "political non-involvement" on the part of Jesus and His followers.

They had no rights or political access to the system; most of them were not even Roman citizens (except for the Apostle Paul). It simply wasn't possible for them to influence the political system, except indirectly by evangelizing those who WERE government officials.

However, it does not logically follow that Christians in a democratic republic should shirk their duties re:, at least, studying the issues a bit and voting, and in some cases obeying a call to activism or seeking elective office. It's clear that God cares about government -- the Bible has a lot to say about how government should be conducted, and we ignore those admonitions on election day at our peril. Furthermore several heroes of the faith were government officals of one sort or another -- Joseph and Daniel come to mind.

59 posted on 05/03/2004 1:35:40 PM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: Rytwyng
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Of course Jesus was framed with a charge of plotting against the government. That was the only charge the Romans would care about; they didn't care that he might have claimed to be God's son. It also was a believable charge to them, since they had several previous zealot insurrectionists already on a cross.

My point is that the charge wasn't true.

Yes, Chrsitians need to be good citizens and vote etc. That is why I am on this board.

Of course, civilizations require laws and government. But keep in mind they require laws and government precisely because they are East of Eden. God has little interest in helping us get our governments right.

I agree that -- not a little -- a LOT of social reform takes place when hearts are won. But social reform is not the object.

"Heroes of the faith" are different after Jesus than before Jesus. Before Him, they are members of a nation who legitimately consider earthly theocracy the norm; after Jesus, God's attention has shifted. Clear as a bell.

Thanks again for your interest in this neglected issue.

61 posted on 05/04/2004 5:26:55 AM PDT by Taliesan (fiction police)
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