Replies

betty boop: Glad you found Needleman to be so enjoyable! The man & his books are an absolute treasure.

marron: you're posts have been supurb. I just love the Corvette analogy. So true!

BTW, this has been one of the BEST threads I've ever come across in my many years at FR. Thanks to everyone for your contributions!

betty: this one statement you make, for me, is the summation of this entire thread:

When we know who we are, then we become free to enter into relationship with God.

How true! Our converstion experience, whatever it may be, is often presented, especially by evangelicals, as having arrived. There's nothing more for us to do, except go to church, read your Bible, and pray. God's done it all, all we must do is except it.

However, the truth is much more interesting...

Our 'conversion' is only 'Step 1' in a long string of steps that will allow us to know who God is, and who we are. Both are necessary, but the starting point must be The Question: Who are we? Why are we here? (And so forth...) This process goes by the ancient name of sanctification, which is far more than just being morally good! The modern church teaches that God has done all the sanctifying for us; there's nothing more that we need to do. How different a teaching that is from scripture!

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
(Paul's letter to the Phillipians 2:1-13 NIV)

God isn't quite done with us yet! Paul never tells us to relax, kick up our heels, and enjoy life for there's nothing more for us to do! He always encourges the recipiants of his letters to persevere, to 'work out your salvation' because God is still working in you...

As sons of God, as imago dei, it is natural for us to seek out our Source, thereby to know ourselves as we truly are, and to give thanks and praise to our Creator, Our Father.

Your entire post (and many of the posts from you and others leading up to it) have all been extremely helpful in confirming something I am learning to appreciate for the first time in my many, many years of being a Christian: we must know ourselves --our true selves, completely stripped of all ego, to fully appreciate and value our relationship to God. It is not enough for us to be told this relationship is valuable, or to hold on to the knowledge of it's value; we must be able to feel the value of it, to know it in the very core of our being. But to know it there we must first know who we are, and where this "core" is. One thing for sure: the ego is not it!

How much of modern Christianity, regardless of the tradition or denomination, is really just helping to prop up our ego, rather than helping us to destroy it?

You absolutely must get and read Jacob Needleman's book Lost Christianity. The point of the book is the same as so many of the fine posts on this thread: the church has fogotten Step 1: that in order for us to truly know God, and be transformed by that knowledge (or gnosis), we must first know ourselves. Almost all of Christianity starts from assuming that we know ourselves. But all we really know--and not even that well--is our own ego.

betty boop demonstrates something in her posts from Needleman's A Sense of the Cosmos that is true of all of his books: there's a tremendous amount of wisdom in that man's writings.

Get Lost Christianity: A Journey of Rediscovery. You won't regret it.

Thank you oh so very much for your excellent post and perfect selection of Scripture!!!

Our converstion experience, whatever it may be, is often presented, especially by evangelicals, as having arrived. There's nothing more for us to do, except go to church, read your Bible, and pray. God's done it all, all we must do is except it.

IMHO, many have come to this conclusion by such a profound belief in pre-destination that they have eliminated free will. IOW, He has already made you to become a vessel of clay or gold or whatever. “There is nothing you can do about it.” Thus, there is no need for sanctification.

But this reasoning is at odds with the Word and the Scriptures from start to end.

Without free will there is no persuasive explanation for why Christ had to die on the Cross, why evil exists, why there is a heaven and earth, why a judgment, why a new heaven and earth, why a person must be born again, why the Scriptures and Law exist - why there are commandments and admonitions.

There is a parallel among the metaphysical naturalists (atheists). Some of the "second reality" science theory precludes free will because it claims that consciousness et al is merely an epiphenomenon of the physical brain. The theory presents a quandary for the rule of law. A murderer cannot be personally responsible for doing what his brain compelled him to do. The response to this claim is basically this (paraphrased): the murderer indeed has no personal responsibility but members of society must also likewise punish him to carry out their own physical brain functions. This is a form of strong determinism (predestination) based on a presumed causality in nature. But causality is not what it seems, especially with regard to space/time and superposition.

Meditating on these points of views – I see little practical difference between the religious and the secular who believe there is no free will because neither accept personal responsibility. One lays it at the feet of “nature” the other at the feet of God.

IMHO, escaping personal responsibility by either theology or theory is a self serving illusion – neither recognizing the power of God nor the nature of time.