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Clarifications on the Case for Free Trade
Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | 4/12/04 | Paul Craig Roberts

Posted on 04/12/2004 6:50:44 PM PDT by ninenot

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To: neutrino
Somehow you left the consumer out of the equation. Buying from the high cost producer, and being able to pass the artificially high price along, through protectionism, is anti-consumer.

Obviously theory is too abstract on this thread. So let's get concrete. The proof is in the pudding. Just why is the most free tread nation on Earth, also the richest, and on a per capita income basis, except for Luxembourg? Just why is the per capita income gap between the US and its other high income per capita competitors (all of which are most protectionist and existing job protection oriented) increasing rather than decreasing in most cases, Ireland to the contrary notwithstanding? And just why does it have the lowest unemployment rate of almost anywhere at present, all those illegal alien vermin hanging about to the contrary notwithstanding?

81 posted on 04/12/2004 9:40:56 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie
a rather honest judiciary,

What planet are you from? An honest judiciary in India. You need to go do some homework, cause that is far from a fair representation of the facts. They just did a special on an american within the last six months who visited india, was kidnapped, tried and jailed on trumped up charges and was extorted for every cent they could get out of him until he was finally able to escape. It was like watching a Grisham flick it was so involved. I went to school with indian immigrants. So I know the real definition of a kangaroo court. You'll have to sell that elsewhere I'm afraid.

82 posted on 04/12/2004 9:46:45 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: dimk
Points 1 & 5 conflict. Flat income tax, or sales tax on selected products?

Flat income tax on all income no exceptions, OK.
Flat end consumer tax on everything no exceptions, OK.

Tax some income sources and not others starts the whole mess growing again.

Tax sales of some products and not others starts the same type of rat's nest of "every product is special in it's special way" (to the tune of the Barney song) regulations, rules, findings, case law, and code bloat...
83 posted on 04/12/2004 9:48:29 PM PDT by null and void (Imagine a world where the "F" in f'in in Kerry stood for FReeper...)
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To: Havoc
You failed to fathom and parse and appreciate that noisome little adjective "rather." The Indian judiciary is more honest than most anyplace outside the Anglo Saxon realm (which is into the rule of law through 1100 years of practice), and maybe a few odd continental European countries, not including France, but maybe Germany.
84 posted on 04/12/2004 9:50:13 PM PDT by Torie
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To: schu
Compete? Ya'll didn't get anyone to agree with you before this crap was trotted out on us. The majority of americans is against free trade at this point because they've seen what it means in action.. getting screwed so some US companies can profit from slave labor, devalue the currency, destroy income levels, put countless citizens out of work or at least knock them out of middle class income levels they worked just as hard as you to achieve.. of course none of this is sinking in. And the answer is protection. because the kind of competition you're advocating is us competing against .50 cents a day labor rates in third world countries. That is not competition, that is a rigged opportunisim seeking profit at the cost of the rest of the system. And Congress is already on record in disgust over how the Visas have been misused to create the same situations that free trade is fostering. Bottom line - Bush fixes this or he's a one term president. And you can shout to the heavens about being treated so unfairly as to not be able to put americans out of work, offshore their jobs and sell their product back into our economy under the fraudulent notion, as Congress has been misled to believe, that American workers were not available to fill the jobs. Not nice to lie to Congress. And I wouldn't blame Congress if they strapped you guys to cover the costs of those who's lives you've ruined by doing an attempted end run around equal protection. You should count yourselves lucky right now that nobody has yet pressed a class action lawsuite against all of you for violation of equal protection and demanding restitution.
From what I've seen so far, a pretty good case could be made.
85 posted on 04/12/2004 9:56:34 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: null and void
Yeah you are right, sorry english is not my first lnguage. Sometimes my writing is not clear. What I meant is taxing sale of drugs the same way as you would tax anything. Right now the whole thing is tax free since it is illegal. So no exceptions, sorry.
86 posted on 04/12/2004 9:58:55 PM PDT by dimk
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To: Torie
And just why does it have the lowest unemployment rate of almost anywhere

Maybe we don't count a lot of the unemployed --- all those getting SSDI, Food stamps, TANF, NAFTA-TAA, TAA aren't exactly employed but don't show up as unemployed either. How do our combined welfare rolls and other government handouts compare?

87 posted on 04/12/2004 10:00:58 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Torie
Ah, yes, I see - depends on the definition of "is" sort of thing. By that standard, Bill clinton is "rather" honest and "rather" ethical. When lawyers can look at a list and know how much to pay a judge for a verdict, I think I'd be using a different noisome little adjective. But then I guess it too depends on what you call justice too. If you have no ethical standard, then buying a verdict isn't so problematic till you realize you have to continually pay ever increasing amonts. The scheme is that if you can round up what they ask for, you can get more. If you can't, they'll take what they can and kill you so you don't come back to get even. Good justice for rich people trying to control the peasants...
88 posted on 04/12/2004 10:03:26 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: FITZ
The welfare rolls are way down, even during the economic downturn, they did not bounce up much. That was terribly frustrating to the liberals, and you should notice that Kerry is not attacking welfare reform. The suggestion that there are boatloads of folks not looking for work, because they deem it hopeless, and are collecting government benefits instead, is a lie.
89 posted on 04/12/2004 10:05:04 PM PDT by Torie
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To: dimk
OK. Rereading my post I wasn't clear either! I'm not happy with taxing both income and purchases. Either one OK.

I could be talked into Federal government taxes income, states tax sales, or vice versa.

The current system of taxing coming, going and staying put (Income, sales, and property taxes, and "fees", etc.) just has to collapse under it's own weight!

90 posted on 04/12/2004 10:06:23 PM PDT by null and void (Imagine a world where the "F" in f'in in Kerry stood for FReeper...)
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To: Havoc
Good justice for rich people trying to control the peasants

Sad and pathetic. But, you are entitled to your opinion, and I wish you well as you work through it all.

91 posted on 04/12/2004 10:07:02 PM PDT by Torie
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To: ninenot
“Is there not some chosen curse, some hidden thunder in the stores of heaven, red with uncommon wrath, to blast the man who owes his greatness to his country's ruin!” - Joseph Addison.

92 posted on 04/12/2004 10:07:23 PM PDT by ETERNAL WARMING (He is faithful!)
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To: FITZ
>>And just why does it have the lowest unemployment rate of almost anywhere

Maybe we don't count a lot of the unemployed --- all those getting SSDI, Food stamps, TANF, NAFTA-TAA, TAA aren't exactly employed but don't show up as unemployed either. How do our combined welfare rolls and other government handouts compare?

Nonfarm payroll employment increased by 308,000 in March, and the unemployment rate was about unchanged at 5.7 percent... http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Government unemployment numbers are garbage. Where exactly did these 300k people come from who were "not unemployed" in February, but materialized in March to suck up all the newly created jobs, keeping the unemployment rate level?
93 posted on 04/12/2004 10:14:20 PM PDT by MTOrlando
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To: Torie
Yeah, it is sad and pathetic that a system should be like that. It's even sad and pathetic as I noted earler that testimony before congress pointed out a company ritually abusing the H1 and l1 visa system complained that american labor is too expensive, stupid and "uncontrollable". That is people of like mind with you in this mess with fewer moral qaulms than the average free traitor if that were possible. Motto: Profit and power at all cost.
94 posted on 04/12/2004 10:16:16 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: Havoc
Sir,

You are a bit uniformed about my situation, but let me assure you that despite the fact I was recently laid off I am working hard to find a new job.

I don’t know why, but I’ll ask you again to provide rational comments to the following previously posted points:

1. The supply of cheap labor is for all intent unlimited for the foreseeable future. There are hundreds if not billions of people in SE Asia waiting to enter the low skill labor market and work for $.50/day.

2. The short term benefits to the US consumer are enormous. Our standard of living is very high. It is unlikely we will be willing to pay $100 for a pair of jeans or $5,000 for a home PC.

3. The global companies, many which started in the US or are US based, are profit maximizers. They cannot accede to the idea of higher costs, the executives would be fired very quickly by their stockholders and replaced by those who will move to low cost countries.

So given that the above is true, I fail to see how erecting trade barriers will somehow make our situation better. Economic laws are like the laws of physics, except it takes longer for the reaction to occur. You can be the high cost producer, and in the short run this may even work, but eventually you lose. Maybe a better idea is to figure out how to win given a set of rules that are reality.

95 posted on 04/12/2004 10:16:53 PM PDT by schu
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To: null and void
I havent studied economics of taxation enough so I am not sure what is the least disruptive way of taxing would be for the economie. The simplest system is probably the best as you said something like 10% federal income tax and 10% state based sales tax could work.

During the time of the reform the flexibility of the power that Fed now wields can be usefull. But once the taxation system is in place completely and few years passed to stabilise the situation we need to legislate the money growth rate(2-3% whatever seems resonable) and stop money market interventions. It is getting kindof stupid that people are obsessed about Greenspan so much(admitedly very smart economist)
96 posted on 04/12/2004 10:20:43 PM PDT by dimk
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To: MTOrlando
I saw it discussed the other day that we're losing jobs at such a rate right now due to outsourcing and it's repercussions that we have to create 350,000 a month at current just to have 0 growth. The numbers you're responding to appear to bear that up. And people who run out their unemployment benefits and still don't have jobs are not counted as unemployed. But, hey, forclosures are up .. party on dude.. right..
97 posted on 04/12/2004 10:20:50 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: kcar
I love Mises to pieces!

Funny!

98 posted on 04/12/2004 10:23:33 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Need more firewater!)
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To: Torie
54 - "What protects the American standard of living as numero uno is not protectionism, but the value added by the relative skill of American workers, and the efficiency of the macro economy. If America loses its edge, all the protectionism in the world will not protect the American worker from earning average world wages."

And what gives us that is our technology - which is our major export to China and India.

Soon, for all you free-traitors - they will have all our technology, means of production and low wages. And we will be stuck with no way to make any income to buy anything from anywhere, and make nothing here either.
99 posted on 04/12/2004 10:28:02 PM PDT by XBob
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To: schu
How about we revert to prior rules that weren't killing our economy and figure it out while the economy heals. If you have a house that is raging in flames you don't stand and discuss theory about what to do after it's put out while it burns to the ground. You put it out and then decide what to do with the disaster that remains. I do actually have some experience with this. My home burnt to the ground in the time it took the fire dept to come from 9 miles out.
The longer you let it burn, the less there is left in the end. The damage done to government credibility and faith is pretty much at an all time low with all those watching everyone around them being sold out for slave labor. That's a subversion that this Party may never recover from if it goes on too long. For many, it's already beyond that point. It might help to instill some ethics in some people - that would be a great place to start.
100 posted on 04/12/2004 10:29:04 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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