Clarifications on the Case for Free Trade

Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | 4/12/04 | Paul Craig Roberts

[ninenot]

I suppose that both of you can refute his arguments.

Buckley, as you recall, advocates decriminalization of marihuana as well as some other rather odd positions.

So Buckley's opinions are influenced by narcotics?

Get to the topic, please.

[1rudeboy]

"I have asked several of the "free traders" to point out to me where free trade, as they envision it, has been implemented and has proven to be beneficial to all sides.

And it has been repeatedly pointed-out to you that volumes of research, and specifically the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom, show a direct correlation between economic freedom and per capita income, etc. What else do you need? It goes without saying that increasing taxes, regulations, etc., is bad for all involved. Will you next suggest that somebody find an example of a 100% tax-regime to prove it's true?

[1rudeboy]

Partly because of the accumulated wealth of our forbears - wealth we are now squandering.

And the zero-sum argument rears its ugly head.

[1rudeboy]

Partly because of the accumulated wealth of our forbears - wealth we are now squandering.

And the zero-sum argument rears its ugly head.

[ninenot]

What protects the American standard of living as numero uno is not protectionism, but the value added by the relative skill of American workers, and the efficiency of the macro economy. If America loses its edge, all the protectionism in the world will not protect the American worker from earning average world wages

You are ignoring the "protectionism" espoused by Hamilton at the founding, and its benefits to the USA, for the first 140 or so years of the existence of the country. But never mind.

The US Government enjoys a social contract with the citizens of the country, based on the quaint notion that the Gummint and its officers will promote and protect the US citizen (that includes workers) from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Our Gummint, beginning with Nixon, accelerating markedly with X42, and currently with the Clueless George in office, seems to have forgotten their part of the social contract.

And yes, legal work is also being offshored.

[ninenot]

We need to focus on our strengths and get much better at some core items like education and overhead costs.

"Education"?

For WHAT?

Turn your basic 50 year old ex-factory worker into a bio-engineering type?

Forget IT.

Perhaps you are able to describe the career fields which will provide $40-50K+bennies incomes for individuals who ran machinery at industrial plants?

[ninenot]

Sorry--I can't get into a response to your post, nor all your proposals. Consumption tax is a good idea and a part of the puzzle. The rest of your proposals simply defy the principles of Western civilization.

[ninenot]

The answer is not protection, the answer is to compete

Evidently you are not aware that the USA has the very best manufacturing technology in the world.

Given that, exactly on what basis do we "compete?"

Cost of labor.

Not a politically smart solution, and it defies the principles of Western civilization which just happens to value the worker---unless you agreed with those who opposed Lincoln's move to free the slaves.

[ninenot]

You can be the high cost producer, and in the short run this may even work, but eventually you lose.

You should factor "demand" into your equasion.

There is no demand worth a f&&& in Red China for appliances or automobiles.

The only "demand" comes from Western countries--(that's where the MONEY is.)

Of course, creating a permanent unemployed class is a very good way to reduce that demand.

Get the picture yet?

[ninenot]

In general this development(300,000+ new jobs) and stable unemployment rate is very good.

You better take a real hard look at exactly where "all those jobs" came from. A majority were in Gummint, retail, and 'education,'--(more Gummint.)

These are NOT value-added jobs.

[ninenot]

The US has had a free trade regime ever since WW II,

Poppycock, at best.

You are aware, are you not, that WTO/MFN was implemented SINCE 1970?

[Toddsterpatriot]

If the protectionists want to institute the end of trade they should look around and see what it did to other nations.

They should look at the real world? What are you a free-traitor? LOL.

[ninenot]

I've advocated for the consumption tax for years. NO income tax on C-corps, ALL taxes to be paid only on consumption. It's sitting in Congress, stalled by the tax lawyer/CPA lobby (among others.)

Immediate repeal of MFN for all countries which do NOT have Western human rights standards. (That takes out India and China right off the top.)

It's a start.

[1rudeboy]

There is no demand worth a f&&& in Red China for appliances or automobiles.

That's a laugher.

[ninenot]

The dollar will be devalued to solve the problem

Except in the case of PRChina, which locks the yuan at 80% of USD.

You also note that the Arabs figured it out and are jacking the price of oil to compensate (through production cuts.)

[Toddsterpatriot]

The US Government enjoys a social contract with the citizens of the country, based on the quaint notion that the Gummint and its officers will promote and protect the US citizen (that includes workers consumers)

[ninenot]

unless a world war breaks out, but the possibility of that decreases each day as the major nations are more integarted economically with each other. E.g. France and Germany could never go to war with each other again, their economis are too interlinked, neither would England and France or Austria and Italy

You think that the economies of European nations from 1900-1939 were TOTALLY separated?

You have a new theory of war. Some would characterize it as Utopian--

Precisely your theory was brought up on an earlier thread--and referred to as the "management-class" theory; that the one-world UN-o-crats seem to think is operative.

In brief, your theory is Darwin's "all is progress" in geopolitics.

Of course, Darwin was wrong and your theory ignores reality.

[Cronos]

They should look at the real world? What are you a free-traitor? LOL.

Nope, I think free trade is good for us, that makes me a pro-free trader. If someone supports protectionism and other commie style tactics (a la North Korea and Cuba), THEY are being traitors to what we stand for.

[ninenot]

The free traders like Singapore, Japan, Korea, etc. were able to become first worlders in a short time (this was later copied by Malaysia which is now on the brink of being first world), while the closed economies like India and China shrank and/or stagnated

I suggest that property rights had much more to do with the successes than "free trade" per se.

Even though proprights in these countries are not quite up to US standards---they beat the hell out of those available in PRChina and India.

[ninenot]

Both your points are noted in the PCRoberts thread-header. So what?