FR Exclusive: Jeb answers questions about his support of drivers licenses for undocumented workers

Jeb's emails to FR poster, summer | April 6, 2004 | Jeb Bush

[summer]

What do you think. or are you still absorbing it all?

Hello again, ladyinred. I have now read all the posts on this thread and I have reached some of my own conclusions, a few of which I will share with you here.

Before I begin, I would like to just say that my own grandparents are immigrants, on both sides of my family, with one of my sets of grandparents always voting Republican, and the other set of grandparents always voting Dem. And, both sets of grandparents came here for economic opportunity, and very much wanted to, and did, assimilate into the USA. So, on one hand, I am sympathetic to immigrants because that is in fact my own background as well.

But I would also like to say that I have found myself very sympathetic to the repeated arguments made on this forum by many that our borders are out of control, and while I realize this situation did not begin the day GW took office, I am not convinced it has radically improved, either. When FR had a poll up a while back on what we should do with our borders, I voted to militarize our borders, which I realize now might have been seen by some as the most 'extreme' position offered in the choices on that poll. However, especially in this age of terrorism, that is what I believe. And, other voters I know who do not consider themselves conservative Republicans but are instead swing-voting Americans, agree that securing our borders should be taking a much higher position on the list of things to do in our country. As one person recently and sadly said to me: "What seems to have best protected us in recent decades is the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans being our neighbor east and west." So, I am very sympathetic to those who want to keep our borders secure.

Having said that, I think this entire discussion should be re-focused, as explained below.

[summer]

I started thinking about a different focus because of this part of Gov Bush's response to this question about benefits:

[8]What are the benefits of issuing the licenses?

First and foremost, this bill promotes safety by requiring that aliens pass driving tests before they get on the road. It will also boost compliance with Florida’s auto registration and insurance laws. Increasing the number of insured drivers is an enormous benefit to all on the road. Currently, a licensed driver who gets into an auto accident with an unlicensed alien has no means to recover damages against the uninsured alien.

There are also law enforcement benefits; a database of licensed drivers helps law enforcement verify the identity of a driver who is pulled over. Unlicensed, undocumented aliens currently are not part of this database.

The first paragraph above, has others have already pointed out, makes little sense in that (1) Non-English speaking applicants for a driving test are likely to fail, and as far as I know, road signs in FL are not in Spanish; (2) insurance is not something desired by this group of drivers due to cost; (3) insurance will not be available to this group of drivers due to high cost; and (4) if you are in an accident with such a driver, who is illegally working somewhere picking fruit for a living, your chances of recovering anything are nill, with or without this new bill from Gov Bush, due to #2 and #3 above.

That said, what are the benefits to the subject driver who might actually be able to get insurance? I don't see any, except maybe a somewhat the potential for a somewhat higher paying minimum wage type job in the transportation business, as others mentioned, delivering pizzas, etc.

And that brings me to what I think is the real issue here: the employers who are hiring these undocumented, illegal workers in this country.

Are these workers coming to FL to be tourists and pay hotel tx and enjoy our beachers? I think not. They are coming here to work.

So, if the individual worker is illegal, what about the employer hiring that individual? That employer is complicit in the act as well.

We are discussing these undocumented / illegal alien workers as if they hold some sort of magical key to the real "benefit" of this program that I can identify, which is in terms of law enforcement, and that benefit concerns a new database of these undocumented workers.

Should the individual worker be responsible for mounds of documents to enter a system providing little benefit for him or her?

Or, should the responsibility rest with the employer for at least beginning the process of providing that information into a database, since the employer, too, is part of the illegal act in allowing that non-tourist worker to be here?

Right now, in the academic world, the situation is somewhat analagous in that universities and colleges hosting international students must relay mounds of information about foreign students, into a new data base, which was never required before, nor existed before. The government did not say: "Hey, students, when you have a chance, go over to the student center and input all this info yourself." Instead, the government required the universities to do it, and in that same vein, I think the government should be requiring employers to do it, under much higher penalties of law against the employer.

(Yes, I know I may be flamed here.)

So, where does that leave us now? With a data base full of now "documented" illegal aliens - and that's it?

I think the subsequent "reforms" in this matter should go to the heart of this problem, which involves the method by which one obtains US citizenship, to help these people either move toward becoming citizens, or, sending them back home.

There are plenty of others who would like to come in thie place, and work while trying for citizenship in a specified time frame.

Maybe such reforms could thereby open the door, to all, but result in more actual citizens and less illegals, because every illegal would either be on their way to becoming a citizen, or, on their way home.

Also, as one poster mentioned, there are some very unfair situations right now involving illegals, and the one that comes to my mind all the time involves children. They are here, receiving their free public education through grade 12, but when they graduate high school and turn 18, suddenly they are up for deportation if they are not yet legal -- even if they have won a scholarship to an American college and demonstrated promise and lived most of their lives here. I don't understand why this situation exists, in that such a student could pass any English and history test for citizenship beginning probably at age 14. More emphasis on becoming citizens is needed for these kids who are on their way to making important contributions to our country.

OK, that's it. I am sure I said something here that sounds ridiculous to someone, so I will just call it a night.

[summer]

See my two posts above. I meant to ping you. Thanks. :)

[summer]

See my posts #181 and #182. Does anything I said make sense to you here? I am asking politely. Thanks, Joe.

[MegaSilver]

Thanks... I like Jeb Bush, and I think his heart is in the right place, but this still seems a tad misguided.

[joesnuffy]

Illegal aliens are criminals there fore the state has no business 'legitimizing' them in any capacity

The state cant deport them? they can sure as heck detain them...and turn them over to los migras

Background checks from Mexico?....yeah right....those wont be of much help...you can pretty much buy any false documentation you need...

Insurance....like illegals are going to comply with this...and if you arrest them...for disobeying this law...why not arrest them for being illegal in the first place...

Of course Floridians will have to pay for the whole steenking program...regardless....AND when an illegal kills a whole family and has no insurance will the state of Florida pay damages after they certified an illegal to drive?....

Well one nice thing..should open up a whole new legal specialty

IMO

[MegaSilver]

So, now that they're here, and it doesn't appear they're going away, how do we deal with the situation?

Not amnesty, but attrition. First, start enforcing our border laws. Second, crack down on businesses hiring illegals so that it's as unpleasant as possible to live here illegally. I can all but guarantee they'll deport themselves.

[MegaSilver]

Yeah... and it's things like this that emphasize why tighter border control and abolition of welfare are necessary. If we did that, this kind of stuff might not happen so often.

[summer]

Not amnesty, but attrition. First, start enforcing our border laws. Second, crack down on businesses hiring illegals so that it's as unpleasant as possible to live here illegally.

I was about to nod off here, but I think what you said here summarizes part of what I am trying to say, too.

If the USA right now said, "that's it, no more illegals in our country period," and the eligible illegals (those without criminal records and not from terrorist nations) already working here have "X" number of months to become legal or leave, the numbers would drop. Any illegal knowing he or she would be subjected to this data base upon working anywhere might think twice about wanting to come here, since now it would involve actually committing to becoming a citizen in X amount of time, or, be deported.

I heard on the radio once this interview with some undocumented workers who have been here for something like 19 years, and they said they have no interest whatsoever in GW's "guest worker" plan because of all the restrictions - same employer for 3 years, etc. They said they were planning on remaining illegal. Yet, they spoke English well, they have been here, and are working - why aren't people like that trying to become citizens?

[summer]

And as for driver licenses, I read today in the NYT that a Dem political leader in TN is requiring illegals to have "certificates" showing they are allowed to drive, but that's it. Not a license.

[summer]

Any illegal knowing he or she would be subjected to this data base upon working anywhere might think twice about wanting to come here,

It might also deter people who are illegals and already have criminal backgrounds - to have a data base of ALL undocumented workers, not merely the few who want to jump through all these hoops as described in this program from Gov Bush.

[k2blader]

*If* "very few illegals will be getting licenses anyway", why even offer them?

[summer]

The other thing I can't help wondering about is this: If the US ever really did crack down totally on illegal immigration, would that perhaps result in the US considering bringing back the draft while we are at war? Are there a very high number of illegals now trying to become citizens by joining the US military? And, is it possible the refusal to crackdown on illegals is somehow related to the military and our current involvement in war?

I don't mean to imply anything negative about Gov Bush, or his brother, but this whole issue of immigration is obviously such a lose/lose issue between them and their base. It seems to me to be what the economy issue was for their dad (and no offense intended to him either); though the other party (Dem) is not really picking up on how much angst exists in these voters about this issue.

[MegaSilver]

Hmm... good points.

But ANY kind of amnesty needs to be accompanied by a crackdown on our borders.

What's more, the government has appeared to promise to enforce its anti-hiring laws in the past, but backed down due to pressure from the left. That's the real reason I'm against an amnesty: they need to prove that they'll enforce the laws we have before we make the system even more complex.

[summer]

But ANY kind of amnesty needs to be accompanied by a crackdown on our borders.

yes, re the borders issue, again, especially in this age of terrorism. And, BTW, I am not even thinking in terms of "amensty" -- more of a deliberate weeding out of those with criminal backgrounds and from terrorist nations, and fgor those already employed who remain, a timed chance to earn citzenship -- and that's it, when time runs out, they are out, too. I know that may sound harsh to some, but I honestly think that is fair. 19 years of not paying taxes and earning a living under the table is ridiculous.

[summer]

Are there a = Is there a

[summer]

Finally,m after seeing something recently on Drudge saying "60%" of all US corporations paid no taxes whatsoever, and knowing that illegals / undocumented workers are paying no taxes, I feel like I am the only one paying my fair share. Is it any wonder social security and medicare and other programs will all possibly go bust right about the time I may well need those services? Maybe I should be like US corporations and illegals and stop paying taxes, because they are not foolishly tossing their money down the drain like I feel sometimes I am here with respect to those perhaps soon to be extinct programs.

[Missouri]

Thanks for the e-mail alert about this thread.

[summer]

And, no, I will not stop paying my taxes - but geesh, you gotta wonder sometimes what is going on when so many people seem beyond the radar at all times.

[John123]

I have a couple of questions for Gov. Bush...

1) Why would an undocumented illegal alien want a driver's license? The state has no power to deport them.

2) If an illegal alien is refused a driver's license because they didn't meet some criteria that Gov. Bush listed, is that person going to stop driving in Florida?

This illegal drivers license idea sounds like a bunch of nonsense that serves to provide "legitimacy" to illegal aliens that won't stand in line to enter US legally.