[Chinese_American_Patriot]

I saw a story about seven FBI agents back in 1986 or somewhere in the late '80s where they cornered TWO bank robbers armed with 5.56x45mm NATO-chambered Ruger Mini-14s. Five had weak .38 special S&W revolvers and two with Beretta 92FS and one with both a .38 and a shotgun. They fired many shots at the two bank robbers who were not wearing Kevlar vests but the weak .38 special rounds just pissed the guys off. All FBI agents got wounded, the one with a shotgun got hit in the hand and the two with Berrettas get killed because all their ammo was in the trunk and they were caught out of ammo in the chamber and the two guys calmly returns to their car. One .38 slug hit one of the robbers in the neck, paralyzing them while the other guy gets constantly hit in the chest but he still squeezes out rounds from his deadly Mini-14. The agent wounded in the arm with shotgun fired it with one hand, always missing. When the shotgun was empty, he took out his .38 revolver and he had to walk up to the car and emptied his revolver to finally kill both of them.

These two guys were big and they took multiple shots in the chest with .38 special slugs and it just seemed to pissed them off. This shows the pathetic stopping power of .38 special or lower and these weak-ass revolvers cost the lives of two FBI agents, ironically the ones with the 9mm Berrettas. In my liberal socialist hometown of Santa Cruz, many cops here still used .38 S&W revolvers but fortunately on a field trip my class visited the local police station, the cop who was my class' tour guide of the then new police station (2000) had a sick HK Mark-23 .45 ACP pistol and showed it to us (not passing it around of course.) You can see my animosity toward low-caliber guns but I just love the power of weapons like the Desert Eagle series, Kalashnikov series, M-16 series and many other famous guns.

[Chinese_American_Patriot]

I saw a story about seven FBI agents back in 1986 or somewhere in the late '80s

My mistake. I was not even born yet in 1986. What I meant was that I heard of this incident that happened in 1986, a year before I was born by the way.

[dogbrain]

The .38 was the reason Browning developed the M1911.

After the incident you refer to, I believe the FBI chose a S&W .40 semi-auto for their standard issue.

Still, wouldn't want to have to look down a .38, or even a .22.

As someone has pointed out, bullet placement may be crucial, but would you really want to take the chance?

As far as the 9mm is concerned, I feel confident enough when carrying my HKP7.
Also, training and mindset should not to be ignored.

[KneelBeforeZod]

that was the "Miami Bank Robbery."

part of the problem was that the FBI agent were taught to simply hide.

The bank robbers were ex military and used fire and advance tatics.

after that the FBI changed their training.

[ought-six]

Yup, I do love the Ruger Mini-14. That is one fun rifle, and the 5.56mm rounds can be deadly (I prefer 5.56mm bullets of no less than 55-grain, and I've found that the 62-grain and 63-grain are real stoppers).

[Condor51]

"This shows the pathetic stopping power of .38 special"

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Excuse me but do you know that different loads are available for every caliber? Are you aware that cops & feds are legally prohibited from using anything but 'ball ammo' (NO hollow points or 'hot' loads).

Also, I have a .38 Colt Detective Special & back in the mid '70's I used to shoot 158 grain Super Vels in it. And I'll tell you what, you wouldn't laugh long if shot with one. When I took it to an indoor range, it sounded like a frickin cannon - everyone would come to see what the heck I was firing. I got tipped to the 'benefits' of the Super Vel by a Chicago PD undercover Narc. And yes he was 'breaking the law' but his life depended on his ammo.

Also, do you know that the first practical revolver, the Colt Patterson wasn't made until 1837. Do you know that the Colt Single Action Army (aka Peacemaker) wasn't even made until 1873 & Colt's 1st DA the Lightening wasn't made until 1877. Do you know that in the 'old west', the most popular caliber was actually the .44-40, not the 45 Colt. However, a .45 caliber SAA could fire the shorter .44-40, but not vise-versa.

Which BTW, reminds me of poor ole Lester Moore who's buried in Boot Hill in Tombstone, AZ:

Les Moore
HERE LIES
Lester Moore
Four slugs
From A .44
No Les
No More

BTW, until he 'died' in 1876 Wild Bill Hickok still used .36 caliber 1851 Navy Colts - cap & ball revolvers. Oh and for what it's worth, the Winchester was NEVER chambered in .45 Colt, but mostly 44-40.

[Atlas Sneezed]

They fired many shots at the two bank robbers who were not wearing Kevlar vests but the weak .38 special rounds just pissed the guys off.

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There are many lessons to be drawn from that incident involving bankrobbers Platt and Matix (Google will provide details.)

The FBI spin was that they were "outgunned", like a poor carpenter blames his tools for his errors. In fact it was a major pooch screw tactically in too many ways to list. They mostly had 38s and 9mm pistols, but many had no backup gun, and no spare ammo for reloads. The agents initiated the incident, yet left their shotguns and kevlar in the cars unsecured. One agent left his backup gun on the car seat, and lost it when he bumped the perps' car. There was poor use of cover, and many misses. Some agents shot 29 rounds, and achieved only 1-2 hits each from short range. Injured agents were not practiced at one-handed shooting. One agent lost his eyeglasses, and was rendered blind (straps before a bust would make sense.) If the bad guys had a decent 308 instead of a 223, many more agents would have been killed, and the bad guys might have escaped alive.