[MNJohnnie]

It's so easily turned into a worldwide propaganda defeat for our troops. No matter how careful we are, it's likely to be seen on CNN and Al Jezeera as rampaging Nazi tanks driving over orphanages


OH MAN, HOW do you doom and gloom types ever get thru any day? Given how EVERYTHING is always a disaster waiting to happen for you guys, I am surprised you even get out of bed! OK, listen up. Jenin was based on rumor and hearsay not actual camera footage. The WHOLE world has had time to see and digest the barbaric behavior of Fallujha. Even those who were not real happy with our invasion of Iraq condemmed the behavior. That is why it was so smart of Bush to wait rather then go in guns blazing the very next day likes so many of our hard right raido talk show host were screaming. Better to do it right and do it surgical. Rather then take the words screamed out of some hard right Talk Show's host's mouth as if it were the gospel of God, I will put my trust in the smarts of the Marine Ground Commanders and the Political Savvy of GW Bush.

[Travis McGee]

OH MAN, HOW do you doom and gloom types ever get thru any day? Given how EVERYTHING is always a disaster waiting to happen for you guys, I am surprised you even get out of bed!

Spoken like a true chairborne ranger, ready to fight to the last Marine in Iraq from the safety of your Lazyboy recliner, watching it all on TV.

Of course I want payback, but on OUR terms, and not on THEIR terms. What they WANT is a "Jenin Massacre" TV spectacular, right between the hospital and the mosque. Tanks driving over children. That's what they WANT. We should play to OUR strength, not theirs, and take a page from the IDF playbook, and use missiles from helos and Predators to take out the targeted individuals. But now it looks like we're going to send the bull into the china shop instead. Well, we can only wish the Marines the best of luck.

[Barlowmaker]

Better to do it right and do it surgical

Absolutely. Surgical means understanding the lessons learned in this Operation. It is impossible to identify, locate and remove a small number of enemy combatants using ambush techniques on targets of opportunity without the active involvement, support and co-operation of local residents. We didn't find 45 of the 52 in the deck by happenstance. We weren't digging a latrine when we stumbled upon Saddam. The Brothers' Grim weren't victims of bad luck in Tikrit.

From day one, we have viewed Fallujah, and it's citizens, as hostile enemy combatants. The various Army units "securing" the city have done nothing to give Fallujahians of lawful rationality, peace and civic duty any reason to view our purpose as just liberators. The entire operation - strategic and tactical - has been a debacle. Most of our KIAs in this region have been easily planned and quickly implented detonations of roadside bombs against supply convoys supporting Airborne and Infantry units woefully ill suited for the Fallujah mission. It was obvious as of last May that Fallujah was not a last stand target of Revolutionary Guard professionals and weaponry and 500,000 civilians willing to go to their death for Saddam and Baathist rule. We need to replicate what the 4th ID did in Tikrit. House by house, weapons cache by weapons cache, little fish dropping dime on bigger fish until Uday takes a TOW up his tailpipe.