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Doctor: Brutal, immoral procedure can aid proper burial of murdered baby
Newsday ^ | 30 March 2004 | Larry Neumeister, Associated Press Writer

Posted on 03/30/2004 3:17:48 PM PST by MegaSilver

NEW YORK -- A doctor testified Tuesday that the delivery of a largely intact fetus in a procedure threatened by a new law is sometimes preferred by women who are grieving the loss of a pregnancy and want to properly bury the fetus.

Amos Grunebaum, a specialist in maternal fetal medicine at New York Hospital, testified on the second day of simultaneous trials in New York, San Francisco and Lincoln, Neb., on the constitutionality of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

Abortion rights advocates say the law signed by President Bush in November will endanger almost all second trimester abortions or 10 percent of the nation's 1.3 million annual abortions. The government says the law will end an "inhumane" act that causes pain to fetuses.

(Excerpt) Read more at newsday.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; murder; pba; pbaban2003
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The original title was, "Doctor: Controversial procedure can aid proper burial of fetus."

I took out the spin.

1 posted on 03/30/2004 3:17:50 PM PST by MegaSilver
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To: MegaSilver
re: "want to properly bury the fetus")))

bump.

2 posted on 03/30/2004 3:21:41 PM PST by Mamzelle (for a post-neo conservatism)
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The rest of the article, from http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/newsflash/get_story.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?g7907_BC_MI--AbortionLawsuits&&news&newsflash-michigan (I should've just used this source in the first place):

The plaintiffs in the New York case include Dr. Timothy Johnson, chairman of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Michigan Health System.

U.S. District Judge Avern Cohn in Detroit has ordered the University of Michigan to give Johnson access to its records so that he could see if any abortions performed there fit the criteria in the government's inquiry. The university complied, but Johnson found no relevant records, the university said last week.

In testimony in New York, Grunebaum said more than 95 percent of the women he has treated who must give up their pregnancies in the second trimester "really, really, really wanted to have a baby."

He said doctors used to hide the fetus from women after an abortion before studies in the late 1970s and early 1980s showed that women grieved less after a failed pregnancy if they get to see the fetus.

"It is the same as any baby dying. People want to hold the fetus," he said, adding that he goes so far as to put a cap on the head of the fetus just as he would a newborn.

Meanwhile, in U.S. District Court in Lincoln, a doctor testified Tuesday that he would risk going to jail rather than obey a federal ban on abortion that is being challenged as unconstitutional.

"I'd probably continue" performing abortions, said Dr. William Fitzhugh of Richmond, Va. "I'd have to take my chances."

In his testimony, Grunebaum disagreed with some key findings by Congress as it developed the law over eight years.

He said Congress was wrong to suggest doctors sometimes kill the fetus by blindly forcing a sharp instrument into the base of the skull as it is being pulled out of a woman.

"I can see it. I can feel it. I'm aware of it," Grunebaum testified.

He disagreed with Congress' conclusion that certain abortions, performed as an intact fetus is pulled from a woman's body, never are necessary to preserve a woman's health and that it is a practice not embraced by the medical community.

He said it is practiced at hospitals across the country.

"If it was outside standard medical care, believe me, those hospitals would quickly forbid it," Grunebaum said.

The litigation in three courts centers on the ban of what lawmakers defined as "partial-birth" abortion and what doctors call "intact dilation and extraction" -- or D&X.

Opponents of the ban also argue that its language is vague and could be interpreted as covering more common, less controversial procedures, including "dilation and evacuation." Known as D&E, it is the most common method of second-trimester abortion. An estimated 140,000 D&Es take place in the United States annually.

On Monday, Assistant U.S. Attorney Sean H. Lane told U.S. District Judge Richard C. Casey in his opening statement that the procedure "blurs the line between live birth and abortion" and never is necessary to protect a woman's health.

A. Stephen Hut Jr., an attorney for abortion rights activists, argued that the law "in its stunning breadth would ... remove the range of abortion alternatives available to women in the second trimester" and threaten the health of women because it allows no exceptions.

Lane, the government lawyer, said doctors performing the abortions act as if they are assisting a live delivery, using the same terminology and techniques as obstetricians, just before they "end the life of a partially born fetus just inches from birth," often by suctioning brain tissue.

He said the law does not ban abortions in which the fetus is destroyed while it is still in the woman's body or when a plan to destroy it in the body accidentally results in a partially delivered fetus, "because there is no intent to take the steps prohibited by the Act."

In San Francisco, Maureen Paul, a chief medical officer for Planned Parenthood, testified Monday that she chooses to perform methods of abortion that violate the new law because they are among the safest options.

She testified that her "purpose in bringing the fetus out past the navel ... is to empty the uterus in the safest way possible." She said inserting a needle into the woman's uterus to kill the fetus before it is partially out of the body carries risks.


3 posted on 03/30/2004 3:21:41 PM PST by MegaSilver
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To: MegaSilver
Gee... why would anyone want to bury a fetus, if it's not a human life?
4 posted on 03/30/2004 3:25:03 PM PST by thoughtomator (Voting Bush because there is no reasonable alternative)
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To: thoughtomator
Sounds to me like somebody wants to have their cake fetal tissue and eat bury it too!
5 posted on 03/30/2004 3:27:19 PM PST by The Duke
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To: MegaSilver
"It is the same as any baby dying. People want to hold the fetus," he said, adding that he goes so far as to put a cap on the head of the fetus just as he would a newborn.

These people are sick bastards.

6 posted on 03/30/2004 3:30:07 PM PST by jwalsh07 (We're bringing it on John but you can't handle the truth!)
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To: thoughtomator
Wow this is some really crazythoughtspeak. How is an abortion a "failed pregnancy?" The women want to get a late term abortion of their baby, then mourn and bury it? But the baby has no life? And it's a very sweet thought. The doctor sucks out the baby's brain and crushes it's skull. Then he hands it to you, so you can mourn properly. Even I never thought women having an abortion were quite this whacky.
7 posted on 03/30/2004 3:31:02 PM PST by Williams
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To: Arthur McGowan
Would you care to glimpse evil today?
8 posted on 03/30/2004 3:31:33 PM PST by jwalsh07 (We're bringing it on John but you can't handle the truth!)
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To: jwalsh07
He puts the cap on because the brain has been sucked out and the skull crushed.
9 posted on 03/30/2004 3:32:29 PM PST by Williams
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To: MegaSilver
It is recommended to NOT change the original title. Added () statements are ok. This is to aid in the search function to find posts and look for duplicate posts before posting.
10 posted on 03/30/2004 3:33:20 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: MegaSilver; All
I attended the funeral of an 85 year old aunt a week ago yesterday (Monday). She was interred in a very old cemetery where the oldest graves were of people buried in the early 1800s. I noticed that one of the graves nearby was the grave of a baby girl. Gravestones in those days were more specific than they are today. The mother and father were identified on the gravestone and, where the dates of the person's beginning and end would normally appear, there was simply the word "stillborn."

'pears to me that, while we have grown technologically in the interim, we've come a long way down morally.

I cannot even imagine that you could find a doctor who would perform an abortion, much less a "partial birth" abortion. I must wonder where the people who do these things come from. Sad.

11 posted on 03/30/2004 3:33:23 PM PST by davisfh
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To: Williams
Yeah, I know. Sick &^$$*&$*&^&(*^(*!
12 posted on 03/30/2004 3:34:51 PM PST by jwalsh07 (We're bringing it on John but you can't handle the truth!)
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To: thoughtomator
He said Congress was wrong to suggest doctors sometimes kill the fetus by blindly forcing a sharp instrument into the base of the skull as it is being pulled out of a woman. "I can see it. I can feel it. I'm aware of it," Grunebaum testified.

This was serious testimony???

13 posted on 03/30/2004 3:35:28 PM PST by Williams
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To: thoughtomator
"If it was outside standard medical care, believe me, those hospitals would quickly forbid it," Grunebaum said.

I know he's not kidding, but his answer is it's got to be OK because the hospitals permitted it to take place??? Puleeeze.

14 posted on 03/30/2004 3:38:35 PM PST by Williams
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To: Williams
"Curiouser and curiouser..." - Alice in Abortionland
15 posted on 03/30/2004 3:40:43 PM PST by thoughtomator (Voting Bush because there is no reasonable alternative)
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To: MegaSilver
They use the term "failed pregnancy" - call it what it is, a terminated pregnancy. Failed pregnancies are naturally caused - terminated ones are flat out killed babies. This sort of twisted logic makes me sick.
16 posted on 03/30/2004 3:48:21 PM PST by momfirst
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To: Williams
How is an abortion a "failed pregnancy?"

My dear, a FAILED pregnancy is anything but a perfect baby of the right sex.
17 posted on 03/30/2004 3:52:01 PM PST by mlmr (Honest officer, I wasn't speeding. This SUV is a low-flying rocket!)
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To: Williams
"The women want to get a late term abortion of their baby, then mourn and bury it? But the baby has no life? And it's a very sweet thought. The doctor sucks out the baby's brain and crushes it's skull. Then he hands it to you, so you can mourn properly. Even I never thought women having an abortion were quite this whacky."

There are so many good comments on this thread, I didn't know which one to reply to!

I have read before of abortion clinics letting the mother hold the baby, if they want to. Quasi-religious ceremonies have been invented. They are trying to ease the psychological shock of this action to the mother's psyche. (Now that pro-lifers have pointed out that there is such an effect!).

Yes, it defies logic; but it is to keep intact the fabric of denial. "Yes, my little one, I love you; it just wasn't time, you see. It couldn't be now. Come again later, when I can handle it . . . " I read a poem to that effect by a co-ed after her abortion. Totally self-absorbed. Recognizing the need to mourn, even the need to love, admitting it is a baby . . . but justifying that it is not the right baby at the right time . . .

The line to justifying infanticide becomes more blurred and fuzzy, does it not?

The co-ed is fooling herself. IF she is able to have a baby later (abortion is not a picnic for the reproductive system, and many VDs result in infertility), it will be a different baby; she will still be the mother of this dead one, by her own choice; and some day will have to face that shattering reality . . .

When is a good time, anyway? I waddled around campus earning my doctorate during two complete pregnancies. I noticed, sadly, that I seemed to be the only pregnant student, of any age . . . I can remember stumbling through the library carrying heavy stacks of books, weak with nausea. Well, it didn't ruin my life, or my future . . . They are fooling themselves.

18 posted on 03/30/2004 3:59:05 PM PST by AMDG&BVMH
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To: thoughtomator
"Curiouser and curiouser..." - Alice in Abortionland

I love this one. It pretty much sums up the attitude I was trying to describe, but using many fewer words! I think we should characterize all these machinations of reason and logic as Alice in Abortionland! ;)

19 posted on 03/30/2004 4:02:09 PM PST by AMDG&BVMH
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To: MegaSilver
She said inserting a needle into the woman's uterus to kill the fetus before it is partially out of the body carries risks

This is the first time that I can recall an abortionist using the word "kill" to describe the procedure.

20 posted on 03/30/2004 4:05:44 PM PST by Labyrinthos
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