Removal of Ten Commandments ordered (IN)

http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/133735-3245-103.html ^

[orionblamblam]

I suggest you read the 10 Commandments again. Coveting thy neighbors stuff is a No-No. But coveting thy neighbors stuff is a primary aspect of capitalism. The reason why people work their butts off to produce new and better things is because people see that stuff, want it, and are willing to work their butts of to get the money to buy it.

[orionblamblam]

> They all agree with you over at DU?

I seriously doubt it. I'm argueing from the standpoint of reason and facts. This is not a popular stance among Liberals... or Fundamentalists, on certain points.

I await an actaul refutation of my points, and not just ad hominems...

[Theo]

All right -- I mixed up someone else's saying they're a Christian. Sorry about that.

I do better understand now why you're posting the things you're posting. If you were a Christian saying the things you're saying, it is Christians' responsibility to try to "correct" you in a gentle and biblically sound way. But if you're not a Christian, and you're saying the things you're saying, then we should be more motivated to show you the love of Christ.

You don't primarily need "correction"; you need Christ.

And you can stop right there, thinking that Christians lack scientific/logical skill and integrity. You don't need to "leave that at the door" when you turn to Christ. In fact, you'll find that your logic and scientific mind enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the Creator.

[Zack Nguyen]

Theo, I think you have a good point. God bless!

[orionblamblam]

> I do better understand now why you're posting the things you're posting.

Ah, good, then you understand that it is the sheer, overwhelming *pride* that many Christians have that causes them to erroneously see the 10 Commandments, with it's collection of largely wacky and irrelevant rules, as the basis for the United States.

> And you can stop right there, thinking that Christians lack scientific/logical skill and integrity.

I won't deny that for a millisecond. I know a great many scientifically literate Christians who believe that God made the universe billions of years ago through the Big Bang or some similar physical genesis, and created mankind through the evolutionary process. Religion and reason are not mutually exclusive. But many religionists do their damndest to make it seem that way. I've always thought that if there *is* a God, there's a special circle in Hell just for Creationists.

[imfleck]

This is one of the best threads of all time. Please keep it coming.

[Polybius]

saying the Constitution forbids a government to post the Ten Commandments in a government building. ........ He obviously has never been to the Supreme Court of the United States Building.

East facade of the U.S. Supreme Court Building.

Our Founding Fathers would be shocked to know that our Constitutional Republic is ruled, not by what the Constitution clearly says, but by Judges reading things into the Constitution that are not there as if they were priests at the ancient Oracle of Delphi reading chicken entrails.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

[Polybius]

So, a capitalist (which is forbidden by the 10C... can't covet better stuff, y'know) is distinctly anti-American?

Let me guess....You belive in reading penumbras instead of what is clearly written, don't you?

The Tenth Commandment does not forbid the "covetting of better stuff". If your neighbor likes your SUV or your donkey, he is perfectly free to get himself an SUV or a donkey that is just as good or better than yours.

What Tenth Commandment prohibits is his taking steps to take away your SUV or donkey.

The Tenth Commandment is not anti-capitalist. The Tenth Commandment is pro-capitalist-property-rights.

It should be noted that the "capitalists" of Middle Age and Renaissance Europe were Jews who should know something about how to interpret the Ten Commandments. This situation came about by Church prohibitions on the practice of banking, not on the basis of the "covet" clause of the Tenth Commandment but on concerns about usary.

[orionblamblam]

> This is one of the best threads of all time. Please keep it coming.

I actually doubt that'll happen. The last time I got into a debate of this type - at the beginning of the "Under God" flap more than a year ago - I made basically the same points I'm making now, and got banned for it. Seems political correctness runs on BOTH sides of the political spectrum.

[orionblamblam]

> You belive in reading penumbras instead of what is clearly written, don't you?

Incorrect. Let's see what's actually written, shall we? Well, first we gotta figure out *which* 10 Commandments, and which translation. Unless you've an objection, at the moment I'm looking at:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
Simply because it comes up early in the Google search.

So, let's see. You said: "What Tenth Commandment prohibits is his taking steps to take away your SUV or donkey." But let's see what it ACTUALLY says:

Exodus 20 2-17
You shall not covet your neighbor's house;
you shall not covet your neighbor's wife,
or his manservant, or his maidservant,
or his ox, or his ass,
or anything that is your neighbor's.

Read's to me like "Don't covet your neighbors stuff." It would appear that YOU are reading more into it than is there. Now, you can argue the definition of covet... can mean anything from "Hey, I'd liek to have me one of them there things," to "I have GOT to get me one of them there things." But still to covet does not mean to steal. There is another commandment that covers that one.

> It should be noted that the "capitalists" of Middle Age and Renaissance Europe were Jews who should know something about how to interpret the Ten Commandments.

Yes. But then, Judge Roy Moore is a born again fundamentalist Christian, and thus he should know something of the 10C too... you know, the commandments that include:
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;

This would include a prohibition against not only that big stone focus of worship that Moore had illegally installed on public property... it would also ban you from sculpting a bird or a fish or a cat.

I view the Bible like I view the Constitution. If they are to be taken seriously, they are to be taken at face value. In other words... either they mean what they plainly say, or they're just worthless scraps of paper. If they were made to be intreprettable only by the priesthood/lawyer-class, then they're crap.

"Shall not be infringed" thus means exactly that, and "you shall not covet... anything that is your neighbor's" also means exactly that.

Now, two thousand years ago, that commandment made sense, and partially still does today. Then as now, your neighbors wife is unique. But back then, *everything* your neighbor ahd was unique. When there's only one of something, only one person can have it. And if two people want what only one can have, at the very least someone will feel left out. But nowadays.... there's this thing called "mass production." You can have an HDTV... and so can I. That commanment has lost much of it's meaning. And others are completely irrelevant to a fully functional society.

[Polybius]

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.

Read's to me like "Don't covet your neighbors stuff."

Exactly. Do not covet "your neighbor's" stuff. If you want stuff exactly like your neighbor's, you go out and earn your own stuff.

How you translate that in your earlier post to mean that the Tenth Commandment prohibits capitalism because capitalism is the pursuit of "better stuff" is something you have yet to explain.

By your logic, if I were a bachelor and I wished I had a wife as my neighbor did, I would be prohibitted from seeking out my own wife.

[orionblamblam]

> If you want stuff exactly like your neighbor's,

The apparently you are going to hell with the thieves, murderers and sculptors.

> By your logic, if I were a bachelor and I wished I had a wife as my neighbor did, I would be prohibitted from seeking out my own wife.

No... by the *Bible's* logic, as has been pointed out to you.

Note how most of the Christian utopian societies throughout history, including the Plymouth Plantation Pilgrims, recognized the commandment for what it said, and tried communistic societies... with the inevitable results.

[F.J. Mitchell]

Are such Judges illiterate or just unable to read with comprehension? They should be forced to point out those words they claim to be in the Constitution, that the rest of us cannot find.

[Hacksaw]

This would include a prohibition against not only that big stone focus of worship that Moore had illegally installed on public property... it would also ban you from sculpting a bird or a fish or a cat.

TROLL ALERT

(what an idiot!)

[Polybius]

If you want stuff exactly like your neighbor's,

The apparently you are going to hell with the thieves, murderers and sculptors.

I see that you are under the delusion that God had delegated such decisions to you.

No... by the *Bible's* logic, as has been pointed out to you.

The only thing you have pointed out is your own opinion in regards to the interpretation of the Bible. You not only seem to believe that you can determine who goes to Hell, you also seem to believe that you and only you can determine the true meaning of a Bible passage.

Note how most of the Christian utopian societies throughout history, including the Plymouth Plantation Pilgrims, recognized the commandment for what it said, and tried communistic societies... with the inevitable results.

What makes you think that I put any credence in the religious beliefs of the Plymouth Plantation Pilgrims any more than I put any credence into the religious beliefs of John Calvin? At the time of the Plymouth Plantation, most of Christendom referred to the religious beliefs of the Pilgrims as "heresy".

[orionblamblam]

Get over yourself.

[orionblamblam]

> I see that you are under the delusion that God had delegated such decisions to you.

Hey, I'm just readign the rulebook. It says if you do certain things, you're damned. Things like carving a fish out of a block of wood.

I've pointed out the plain, simple wording of the ten commandments. if you choose to believe that the way to read them propelry is through a mirror while hanging upside down, be my guest.

> At the time of the Plymouth Plantation, most of Christendom referred to the religious beliefs of the Pilgrims as "heresy".

And who is to say that YOUR beliefs aren't equally heretical? If Christians can't agree on such simple matters, why get in a snit when non-Christians point it out?

[orionblamblam]

Hmmm...

> TROLL ALERT
> (what an idiot!)

Gee, where did I read... "Always respond with name calling. Nothing wins an argument better than a good old ad-hominen."

Oh, yes, it was here: http://www.freerepublic.com/~hacksaw/

"Hacksaw - a flawed man trying to do better."

Hmmm.

[hosepipe]

[ I suggest you read the 10 Commandments again. Coveting thy neighbors stuff is a No-No. But coveting thy neighbors stuff is a primary aspect of capitalism. ]

Boy, are you brain washed.. You have no idea of what capitalism is and no idea of what the 10 commandment are about either..

It takes real talent to be that dumb. You must be trying hard... Unless you don't really care about either anyway.. Which seems to be your demeanor.

Liberalism/progressivism/democracy are all about envy.. completely.. Malcombe Muggeridge pretty much got the liberals 20. Not really trying to flame you, really.. Been through so many conversations like this over the years. Thats why I know you couldn't care less about those two subjects. A few more wasted words might effect a lurker positively. Socialism is not the cure for capitalism its the ENVY OF IT..

Coveting is socialism personified.

[orionblamblam]

Ad hominems noted.

> Coveting is socialism personified.

Coveting is "wanting stuff." I suggest a dictionary.