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To: Havoc
No, you keep ignoring it. You claim that the Papacy is a late invention, the succession of Popes made up, yet you ignore the testimony of Irenaeus. And you make no effort to explain how, if the Holy Spirit guides the church established by Jesus (something attested to by Scripture), beliefs many fundamentalists hold dear were completely unknown until recently. Meaning, by your own logic, that almost everyone on Earth who has thought himself a follower of Jesus Christ is damned. Instead, you insist that your own personal reading of Scripture is binding on all, and anyone who disagrees with you is not a Christian. What arrogance, what stupidity.

By contrast, my Church, while recognizing that not everyone agrees with Her, recognizes those who are baptized as Christians. Which is why Protestants joining the Catholic Church are not baptized again, and why the Church recognizes marriages conducted by a Protestant minister as binding and indissoluble.

677 posted on 03/21/2004 6:22:21 AM PST by Thorin
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To: Thorin
My claiming the Papacy is a late invention doesn't prevent your church from having existed in some form in the early centuries. I just don't buy that it was called the "catholic" church until Theodosius proclaimed it. I don't accept the logical fallacy that because they come out of the first century (if they do) that having done so makes them the "true" church. And I reject that fallacy laiden position for the precise reason Paul stated - that all asia turned it's back on him.

Personal interpretation is a strawman thrown together for you to duck behind and claim ignorance. I didn't come here demanding you believe me. I came here demanding what Paul demanded and with his authority or are you ignorant of the great commission?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The first verse, you guys like. Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded. All things means all things. Every last one. That means as a Christian I have the same authority Paul had in defending the faith. Every man the apostles discipled was supposed to observe all the same things the Apostles were taught and commanded - ALL THINGS.

I point to scripture and you guys say "but" and go running to find a way around it or an excuse to call it a lie. That is not the mark of the church. That is the mark of the world. And it is why Isaiah stated: Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." Why? Because The word is the light of the world. The word is the testimony of God. It is why Christ said John 9:5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." .

Christianity isn't grabbing a verse here or there that seems to allude to something if you look at it and hold it to up under the sunlight just the right way - twisting it till it is tortured into confession of what it knows not. That is not God's word. His word is the only authority you could claim to have - which is why your church tries to tie it's claims to scripture - even when the scripture proves the claim a lie. Matthew 17:9 - Jesus says it was a VISION. Screach hollar and hiss. VISION. It's there. And it's not my interpretation but what the word of the living God says.

You admit 'not everyone agrees with' your church. But the opposite is what others are arguing and that for some reason, protestants are just Johnny come latelies on trying to correct your church. Rome isn't upset that people aren't Christian, they're upset because others are Christian and as a result reject Rome because Rome is not. All of Rome's authority and power is wrapped up in making people believe they are what they claim to be. The stumbling stone to that is Christ and the Scriptures. Which is why people aren't allowed to read and judge for themselves in Catholicism. It's also why Rome didn't want bibles out there in the common tongue IMO. Sorry; but, you chose your condition, live with it or correct it. But don't try to pull the wool on me.

711 posted on 03/21/2004 2:06:50 PM PST by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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