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Cold-War Thinking Prevented Vital Vehicle From Reaching Iraq
Wall St Journal ^ | 3-19-04 | Greg Jaffe

Posted on 03/19/2004 7:04:36 AM PST by SJackson

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:51:20 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

WASHINGTON -- A decade ago, the Army began producing an armored Humvee capable of providing protection from many roadside bombs and rocket-propelled grenades.

Like most soldiers in Iraq, Capt. Cameron Birge hasn't set foot in one of those vehicles. Instead, he leads convoys through one of the country's most violent regions in a Humvee -- the modern successor to the Jeep -- with a sheet-metal skin that can't even stop bullets from a small-caliber handgun. To shield himself, Capt. Birge removed his Humvee's canvas doors and welded on slabs of scrap metal. He spread Kevlar blankets over the seats and stacked sandbags on the floor.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aftermathanalysis; armor; humvee; iraq; stynkers; uparmoredhumvee; wheeledarmor
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
How did we ever get along with unarmored gun jeeps?

We ran tanks ahead of them. Those in recon teams that used jeeps ahead of or away from main forces sometimes added light armor here or there, but their real addition was two, three, sometimes as many as five machineguns. And not one or two vehicles of a group, but every one...with a few fitted with flamethrowers, 20mm aircraft cannon, or other novelties.


61 posted on 03/19/2004 10:10:29 PM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: omega4412
"[The] equipment...among the most vital to our success in Africa and Europe were the bulldozer, the jeep, the 2 1/2 ton truck, and the C-47 airplane. Curiously enough, none of these is designed for combat."

--Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

Good Lord, I don't think we could continue the war without the jeep. It does everything. It goes everywhere. It's as faithful as a dog, strong as a mule, and as agile as a goat. It constantly carries twice what it was designed for, and keeps on going. It doesn't even ride so badly after you get used to it.

- U.S. WWII War Correspondent Ernie Pyle, killed in his jeep by a Jap machinegunner on Okinawa.

62 posted on 03/19/2004 10:17:22 PM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
This article is right on about the field expedient armor jobs. There are so many different funky armor jobs running around here it looks like we're a bunch of rejects from a Mad Max movie.

(On a side note, we're thinking of wrapping some old shopping carts around the outside of our humvees and calling them Strykers.)

Since we don't have to do long slow patrols, our security is speed. Rather than strap on a bunch of unwieldy scrap metal that won't stop jack anyway, we're stripped down and sprinting from point A to point B. Our defense consists of kevlar blankets, sandbags, and size 12s boots stomping on the pedal. These guys are lousy shots, even at stationary targets, and they are also pretty bad at timing their IEDs. So far, so good for us, I guess.

Many guys don't have the luxury of driving like bats out of hell everywher they go, and they're scavenging anything that might at least slow down 7.62 and IED shrapnel. I don't know how effective the home made jobs are, but I wouldn't trust anything besides a real up armor kit. I sure wouldn't want to do a slow patrol through some of these neighborhoods in anything less.

If I get a chance later, I'll get some pictures of our rides to post. That's all for now.

63 posted on 03/20/2004 2:00:29 AM PST by Steel Wolf (Statistics show that self abuse often goes unreported.)
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To: VaBthang4
It was.

If run over, soviet land mines killed or maimed everybody inside of a 113.

If they were inside. If you rode outside on top, you were okay if it was anything less than a 500-pound aircraft bomb rigged for command detonation that went of under the vehicle, unless it rolled over on top of you.

And that was what most everyone did.


64 posted on 03/20/2004 2:07:27 AM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: Steel Wolf
(On a side note, we're thinking of wrapping some old shopping carts around the outside of our humvees and calling them Strykers.)

Just don't call them Stynkers. That'll cost you an Article 15 at Knox.

65 posted on 03/20/2004 2:08:29 AM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: Steel Wolf
Thanks. I do appreciate your in-put.

Next questions: There are alternatives to the M1114, what keeps us from acquiring and using them? Seems like people are fixated on the M1114.

What use are we making of Saddam's wheeled armored vehicles?

Be careful out there.

66 posted on 03/20/2004 6:08:33 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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To: Thud
ping
67 posted on 03/20/2004 9:27:18 AM PST by Dark Wing
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To: Steel Wolf

A Stryker vehicle rolls through the streets of Mosul on patrol after members of the Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT), B Co. 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division, checked on an Iraqi police station that has been attacked twice.

68 posted on 03/20/2004 9:34:38 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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MOWAG Eagle IV

69 posted on 03/20/2004 3:50:07 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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To: archy
I like the twin 60 mount. Do they have twin mounts for M240's and SAW's? I never see pics of any.
70 posted on 03/20/2004 4:40:58 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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Scarab

71 posted on 03/20/2004 6:09:50 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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Scarab
72 posted on 03/20/2004 6:19:22 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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73 posted on 03/20/2004 6:34:22 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I like the twin 60 mount. Do they have twin mounts for M240's and SAW's? I never see pics of any.

The problem is that there aren't yet right-side feed mechanisms [top covers] for the M240G and M249 SAW. The M60 was adaptable to such twin-gun configurations based on the work that had been done for use as the M60D helicopter armament applications, though I don't know if any actually fed from the right side or not. But the M73/M219 7.62 coax machineguns used in our tanks could, though they were no more reliable feeding from the right side than from the left.

74 posted on 03/20/2004 6:44:09 PM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I like the twin 60 mount.

So did the Air Force base security teams using the XM706E2 Cadillac Gage V-100 that had a pair of M60s mounted. There were also turret versions with twin Browning .30 or 7.62mm MGs.


75 posted on 03/20/2004 6:57:03 PM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: archy
Buddy of mine used to have an MP platoon running V100's and gun jeeps on convoy escort through the Mang Yang Pass.
76 posted on 03/20/2004 11:52:56 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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77 posted on 03/21/2004 12:16:57 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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To: PsyOp
The other thing they could do is pull some of the old 2-1/2 and 5-ton trucks, the old ones with manual transmissions, and turn them into gun-trucks.

It's already being done... 2003 gun truck

78 posted on 03/21/2004 12:34:37 AM PST by MediaMole
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To: MediaMole
That's the Alabama Slammer. Did they ever finish her and run the roads with her? I'd like to hear that story.
79 posted on 03/21/2004 6:58:06 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.)
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To: SJackson
BTTT
80 posted on 03/21/2004 7:04:53 AM PST by Fiddlstix (This Space Available for Rent or Lease by the Day, Week, or Month. Reasonable Rates. Inquire within.)
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