Cold-War Thinking Prevented Vital Vehicle From Reaching Iraq

Wall St Journal ^ | 3-19-04 | Greg Jaffe

[SJackson]

WASHINGTON -- A decade ago, the Army began producing an armored Humvee capable of providing protection from many roadside bombs and rocket-propelled grenades.

Like most soldiers in Iraq, Capt. Cameron Birge hasn't set foot in one of those vehicles. Instead, he leads convoys through one of the country's most violent regions in a Humvee -- the modern successor to the Jeep -- with a sheet-metal skin that can't even stop bullets from a small-caliber handgun. To shield himself, Capt. Birge removed his Humvee's canvas doors and welded on slabs of scrap metal. He spread Kevlar blankets over the seats and stacked sandbags on the floor.

[VaBthang4]

"Read the bleeding article."

Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word 'substandard'.

"Kindly remove the wax from your ears, drop the mere boosterism, and pay attention to what actually happens."

Judging by your unqualified [and I suspect unserving]perspective I'd venture a guess that my personal experience leads me to have a firmer grasp on "what actually happens" in Iraq than yours does.

Let it [113] go for this AO...the Military did a long time ago.

[VaBthang4]

It was.

If run over, soviet land mines killed or maimed everybody inside of a 113.

It really isn't worth debating....just seems like contrarianism from the same old clique.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Soldiers patrol a stretch of road near Khost, Afghanistan

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Soldiers stand guard near the U.S. embassy during the visit of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in Kabul, Afghanistan

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Spc. Joshua Victorin, 20, from Hesperia, Calif., with D Co., 1st Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, covers a Mark 19 grenade launcher as a sandstorm forms around Fallujah

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Soldiers with the 1st Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, roll through downtown Fallujah

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Military vehicles block a highway at the scene of a roadside bombing in Baghdad.

[JasonC]

I don't care if anybody uses M113s, or Brads, of LAVs. I do care whether anybody bothers to notice that the Gospel of Light (TM) causes casualties, which are not tolerated in practice, and instead leads to inefficient field expediants in place of dedicated armor - for the next AO if not for this one. There is nothing wrong with a hummer as a light truck, but as a combat vehicle it is substandard, and it is was the Gospel of Light, not "cold war thinking", that put our guys in them running what are in fact, combat patrols. And more than a little irked when the reality that makes that so - the charge of the light brigade - is instead spun as caused by its actual opponents.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Artillerymen with the 1st battalion, 319th Field Artillery, set their M19A2 105mm howitzer to a predetermined target as they wait for a fire mission outside Nassir Wa Al Sallam

Doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but thought you might like this pic.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Check out the gun shield on the MK19.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Let it [113] go for this AO...the Military did a long time ago.

A soldier with the 1st Infantry Division holds an RPG that was discovered during a search for weapons at a cemetery in Baghdad on Saturday, February 2, 2004.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Soldiers patrol a stretch of the remote and rugged mountains of Ghazni province, about 60 miles west of Kabul, Afghanistan

[VaBthang4]

The overstuffed e-syntax forced me to abort.

Maybe someone else'll wanna waste their time on it.

[VaBthang4]

...oi vey...for the type of missioned being whined about.

Come on man do the math already.

[Darksheare]

I miss my M119.
It's a nice howitzer, and fun.
Looks like the section chief and the gunner going over the safety T, and what is notable: The 'hundred thousand dollar bar' handspike is visible to the right of the kneeling sodlier's helmet.
That's not something one sees in pics of this system normally.
Normally the pics are set up and cleaned so that anything not photogenic isn't there.
Like the handspike.

Weird that the commo stuff isn't next to the tire in front of the gunner, as that's where I was trained to put it.
Unless they're using the Sincgars in the 'truck' which makes more sense, somewhat.

[Darksheare]

Oops!
Yes, I like the pic, thanks!

[JasonC]

I see that factual error, along with spin, continues to count for nothing. As an encore, can you emote some more, peddle some additional ad hominem out of nowheres, sneer for the cameras, drop arguments you are losing, and back it all up with a hearty "who needs thought, we're marines" grunt?

[Poodlebrain]

The increased maintenanace costs for the M113's coupled with the increased fuel costs are definitely one consideration. What I couldn't help thinking while reading this article was how we performed many of the missions being described before the HMMWV was introduced. We performed the missions using jeeps, and no one gave a damn about the lack of armor protection.

It is unfortunate that no one in the Army's procurement organization foresaw the extended deployment of 150,000 soldiers in a peacekeeping mission and bought the necessary equipment. But I'm glad they were more properly focused on buying the equipment for those 150,000 soldiers to go into combat and win as that has got to be a higher priority than peacekeeping.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

How did we ever get along with unarmored gun jeeps?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Here's you some math:

1 = 1000 words.

pie are square, cornbread are round.