Brinkley: Kerry Faces Questions about Senate Hit Plot

NewsMax ^ | March 14, 2004 | Steve Malzberg

[petitfour]

the the full thread. the issue of Kerry being in a meeting where assassinations were conducted is a dead end issue

I don't think anyone has intimated that Kerry was present during any assassinations. However, according to some witnesses who also support his candidacy, he was present when a plot to kill the elected representatives of US citizens was debated. Did he turn the folks in? Is he indebted to these criminals in any way? These are very legitimate questions.

[bondjamesbond]

BTW, see how this poster put up the chinese flag to cause trouble? Hmmm....

If he was looking for trouble, looks like he found it!

I have seen people posting stuff about The Phoenix Project for the last month. I had no idea. This is dynamite stuff!

[bondjamesbond]

So, Doug, what's the Statute of Limitations on conspiracy to committ murder? How about treason?

[BushisTheMan]

The following was taken from pro-Kerry blog site: http://counterspin.blogspot.com/

Note my highlighting in bold.

THE LATEST SMEAR: The New York Sun has a story that in November 1971, at a national meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, one member of the group [Scott Camil, who was later arrested and tried as part of the so-called "Gainesville 8."] proposed a scheme to assassinate a group of United States Senators.

Kerry, according to differing accounts, either resigned from VVAW AT that metering, or shortly before that meeting.

According to Douglas Brinkley, Kerry resigned before the meeting. Brinkley says he sent a resignation letter dated November 10, 1971 (two days before the start f the meeting), but couldn't locate it.

A search of the VVAW archives located at the Wisconsin Historical Society in Madison, has not produce the letter either. Although the records are extensive, and it could be in there somewhere.

For the record, the assassination scheme was overwhelmingly rejected by VVAW at that meeting.

Full disclosure: I knew about this issue for a few weeks. There is a discussion of it in Winter Soldiers: An Oral History of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, by Richard Satcewicz via Twayne Publishing's Oral History Series, vol. 26. (1997).

That is one of the reasons I wanted someone from Madison to check the VVAW archives. Kerry had nothing to do with this plot, and in fact by all accounts either was unaware of it, or opposed it outright. But it is relevant if this is one of the principal reasons he resigned from the organization.

Here's what Winter Soldiers: An Oral History . . ." says about the incident:

"[Terry DuBose]: The Kansas City meeting was the beginning of the end for me. After the Dewy Canyon II [The VVAW's successful march on Washington] thing, the media attention became so intense [and] we were getting so many members that it got to the point where all we were doing was compiling a membership list. There was a practical discussion that developed in the organization about what was more important, using energy to build a membership or spending energy to do anything that would protest the war. It was turning into this bureaucracy of building membership lists and keeping records. It felt like we weren't protesting anymore.

That was also where there was actually some discussion of assassinating some senators during the Christmas holidays. They were people who I knew from the organization with hotheaded rhetoric.

They had a list of six senators . . . Helms, John Tower, and I can't remember the others, who they wanted to assassinate when they adjourned for Christmas. They were the ones voting to fund the war. They approached me about assassinating John Tower because he was from Texas. The logic made a certain amount of sense [Ed. Not in my mind, just to make that clear -- Hesiod] because there's thousands of people dying in southeast Asia. We can shoot these six people and probably stop it. Some of us were willing to sabotage materials, but when it came to people...I mean, there were a lot of angry people. They had been in Vietnam, they had lost friends. This had gone on for years; some of them had been protesting for five or six years. They were cynical, nihilistic, and some of them did talk real tough rhetoric. But nobody ever got shot by any of these people. It was just talk.

When I got back from that meeting, I couldn't get up the enthusiasm anymore." Winter Soldiers: An Oral History . . . at p. 294-5.

The book goes on to note, via the editor, that "[t]he meeting in Kansas City brought in a new steering committee . . . ." And that John Kerry, among others, "resigned from their leadership positions and were replaced by several new members." Id at 295.

There is some indication in the oral history that Kerry and Al Hubbard were having a major conflict and that the Kansas City meeting was called as an "emergency" to hash that all out.

In any event, I want to find out as much as I can and give you the information.

[Lady Heron]

This accusation may very well be true. The public wont buy it.

Those 50 and older remember the radicalisms of that time well, and many down to 40 also understand what was going on then. If there is proof, then the older public definitly will buy it. It makes him unfit for office for anybody other than those involved in that radicalism of the time and never grew out of it.

[BushisTheMan]

Kerry's Anti-war Group Can't Bury Deceit

Marc Morano, CNSNews.com

Wednesday, March 3, 2004

Though many former Vietnam veterans support the candidacy of Democrat presidential candidate John Kerry, there is no sign of the man who appeared with Kerry on a nationally televised news program in 1971 to allege widespread atrocities by U.S. soldiers in Vietnam.
That man, Al Hubbard, remains out of the spotlight, perhaps because the war record he touted in directing a prominent anti-war group that included Kerry was fabricated.

Hubbard's deceit, which he later admitted, continues to cast doubt about the truthfulness of the anti-war group's allegations more than three decades after they were leveled.

Kerry has yet to either defend or criticize Hubbard during the campaign. But he continues to stand behind the allegations lodged by Vietnam Veterans Against the War, many of which were included in a book Kerry wrote in 1971.

Hubbard was executive director of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) when he appeared with Kerry on NBC's "Meet the Press" on April 18, 1971. Host Lawrence Spivak introduced Hubbard as a former decorated Air Force captain who had spent two years in Vietnam and was wounded there.

But just days after the program was televised, NBC News, acting on an anonymous tip, began investigating Hubbard and found his military background to be fraudulent.

NBC News Washington bureau chief Frank Jordan confronted Hubbard and obtained a confession from him that he had lied about his rank. Hubbard then went on the network's "Today" show admitting that he had lied about his rank because "he was convinced no one would listen to a black man who was also an enlisted man." According to military documents, Hubbard never achieved a military rank higher than staff sergeant.

In addition to appearing on "Meet the Press" together, Kerry and Hubbard joined with Hollywood actress turned anti-war activist Jane Fonda and others in 1971 in conducting VVAW's so-called Winter Soldier "investigation" in Detroit.

The "investigation" culminated in a stage production in which former veterans charged that U.S. troops had committed massive and widespread atrocities in Vietnam daily. Kerry also testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 as the spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

In Kerry's anti-war book, "The New Soldier," an anti-war poem written by Hubbard appears on page 92. Hubbard is also featured in a photo with Kerry and former U.S. attorney general Ramsey Clark on page 76.

Shortly after Hubbard's admission that he had lied, CBS News reporter William Overend, a writer for the network's anchorman Walter Cronkite, took up the story. Soon, Overend was confronting Kerry about Hubbard's fabrications.

"Al owned up to the rank question," Kerry told Overend in an article titled "Who is Al Hubbard" that appeared in the June 1, 1971 issue of National Review magazine. "He thought it was time to tell the truth, and he did it because he thought it would be best for the organization."

Overend noted in his article that Kerry's comments neglected "the fact that NBC had confronted Hubbard with its 'tip' [that Hubbard had lied] prior to the interview."

Still Cagey After All These Years

In an interview with CNSNews.com last week, Overend recalled that Kerry acted "real cagey" regarding Hubbard's lies.

"I talked to Kerry at that time about Hubbard and Kerry was already real cagey and diplomatic in his handling of whatever questions I was asking him," said Overend, a staff writer for the Los Angeles Times .

Hubbard's falsehoods were not confined to his military rank, Overend told CNSNews.com. Hubbard "had no record of any service in Vietnam ..." Overend said.

Overend stated in his 1971 National Review article, "Not only was there [Hubbard's] word for it that he'd lied about his rank, now the Defense Department was announcing it didn't have any record of his having served in Vietnam at all." Overend wrote that the Defense Department did allow for the possibility that Hubbard had been in Vietnam for short periods loading and unloading cargo planes.

Overend's investigation also later revealed that Hubbard had never been awarded either a Purple Heart or a Vietnamese Service Ribbon as he had claimed, even though, according to Overend's investigation of Pentagon procedure, the service ribbon could have been "rightfully claimed by any member of an air crew serving in Vietnam, even briefly."

There is also no record of any war injuries Hubbard supposedly suffered, according to Overend, despite Hubbard's claim to have been involved in a plane crash in Danang, Vietnam.

Injuries From Sports

Military officials contacted "had no record of [Hubbard] having been involved in a plane crash ever in Vietnam," Overend said. The only injuries Overend could uncover involving Hubbard were "a 1956 rib injury suffered during a basketball game, and a 1961 entry about a back injury suffered during a soccer game."

Overend said that when he confronted other members of the VVAW in 1971 about Hubbard's invented record, reaction was mixed.

'I Really Don't Care'

"I really don't care whether Al was in Vietnam or not. He's a good man. That's all that counts," said VVAW member Scott Moore, according to Overend. The president of VVAW, Jan Crumb, said the issue of Hubbard's lies "matters to all of us very much. But it's an internal problem for us to solve."

When Overend confronted Hubbard with the results of his investigation, Hubbard told him he was considering a lawsuit against the Defense Department for giving out erroneous information, indicated he had requested copies of his own files and would not comment to the media until he had received the records.

Overend's account of his meeting with Hubbard is as follows: "I asked him about the Danang air crash, and he replied: 'I told you, I will not cooperate with the media in any way."

"Al Hubbard had the opportunity to defend himself. Instead he chose to make no comment, and I was left to draw my own conclusions," Overend stated in summing up his investigation in the 1971 National Review article.

Hubbard lives in New Mexico. Repeated efforts to contact him were unsuccessful, but VVAW national coordinator John Zutz did speak with CNSNews.com about the man who directed the anti-war group.

'He Lied'

"What can I say? He lied," Zutz said, referring to Hubbard. When asked whether Hubbard's falsehoods might have damaged VVAW's credibility, Zutz would only respond, "Well, he lied."

VVAW member David Cline said Hubbard has been "missing in action. He dropped out of the scene a long time ago and hasn't resurfaced."

"The last time I seen him was in the '70s," Cline added.

Cline recalled that the VVAW did not dissociate itself from Hubbard as a result of his admitted lies.

"At the time that it came out, there was some people [in VVAW] who called for his expulsion, but in the end the people felt that the embarrassment of the thing was enough - that was his punishment," Cline said.

Cline conceded the incident did harm VVAW's reputation.

"To a certain degree it made us look less credible. It was a strange experience," Cline said.

Valor Stolen by 'Bums'


B.G. Burkett, author of "Stolen Valor" and a military researcher, told CNSNews.com that Hubbard's type of deceit was widespread among people associated with VVAW.

Burkett's book documents false testimonies and reveals that many of the men who worked with VVAW and other anti-war groups who had alleged war atrocities during the Vietnam War had either lied about their background or had claims that were unverifiable.

According to Burkett, the Pentagon investigated VVAW's Winter Soldier allegations and discovered that some of the U.S. Marines listed by VVAW as having testified in Detroit "could prove that they had never been in Detroit and did not testify at that event."

Burkett is critical of Kerry for never having addressed the issue of whether VVAW and the anti-war movement relied on impostors or phony servicemen. "He presented this ragtag bunch of bums as your standard honorably discharged Vietnam vet, and I think nothing could be further from the truth. They weren't," Burkett said.

Zutz disagrees and stands by Kerry's anti-war activism. "As far as what [Kerry] said about Vietnam, he was telling truth," Zutz said.

Copyright CNSNews.com

[petitfour]

I was a mere toddler at the time, but I just learned on another thread that my very own senator was on the list, and he was shot and nearly killed in DC in 1973 during a mugging. Senator Stennis was "the conscience of the Senate." Was anyone ever arrested for shooting Senator Stennis? Maybe it isn't related to this at all. But I love history, and this sort of thing spurs my desire to know more.

[Lady Heron]

you moron i am trying to tell you it is a dead end issue.

I thought it would be last week when this first came out. If the mainstream media goes with it, then it is not the Republicans that want this info out, they would wait until much closer to the election. No point in wasting ammo now.

It will be a group of democrats hoping to change candidate at the convention, or hopimg to air all of his dirty laundry now so that it will be a non-issue by election time(giving him time to recover by election).

[Lady Heron]

I have it there cuz I knew it would cause trouble

Never mind my posts. Waste of time.

[talleyman]

dirt doesnt vote.

Congratulations - you have just insulted 90% of the U.S. You'll go far in the Judas Kerry organization.

[metesky]

raloxk

Name Caller Since Jan 31, 2004

view home page, enter name:

~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Mail To ~

Return

raloxk hasn't created an about page.

[lilylangtree]

Whoa!

[raloxk]

to beat Kerry focus on 3-4 items and pound them. The fact that conservatives jump so readily on an issue which clearly has no traction shows that they are in complete disarray.

[metesky]

The fact that conservatives jump so readily on an issue which clearly has no traction shows that they are in complete disarray.

Complete disarray in March? You're blowing smoke up your own arse, troll boy.

[metesky]

Ya think?
;O)

[cyncooper]

Ping to #86.

I never did find the other thread and link, but this article references what I'd read before:

Burkett's book documents false testimonies and reveals that many of the men who worked with VVAW and other anti-war groups who had alleged war atrocities during the Vietnam War had either lied about their background or had claims that were unverifiable.

According to Burkett, the Pentagon investigated VVAW's Winter Soldier allegations and discovered that some of the U.S. Marines listed by VVAW as having testified in Detroit "could prove that they had never been in Detroit and did not testify at that event."

So you may wish to check out this Burkett's book "Stolen Valor".

[Lady Heron]

The fact that conservatives jump so readily on an issue which clearly has no traction shows that they are in complete disarray

Conservatives in disarray???? You have got to be kidding. How many other elections have you paid attention to (how old are you)? This election has not even started yet.

I am not willing to call you a disrupter yet but, by what you have written so far you are either very young and have not paid close attention to other elections, or you are from the left and have an agenda. If you are young, you are going to learn a lot this election, if you are from the left you will not last long here. I am hoping for the former.

If these things were being said about a Republican they would be top and center of every news organization for the next month. As this is a democrat these things are being said about, it will only get out to the public at large if democrats want it to have legs (then you have to ask yourself why). Whether it gets out into the public at large's notice or whether it remains news for just news junkies it is in itself very important to watch. If this is provable then it is deadly serious and you should be worried about having a president capable of treason. Either way this is important to watch.