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1 posted on 03/12/2004 8:40:14 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
"Shifts the equation in favor of the crimminal." EXACTLY as it was intended to do!
2 posted on 03/12/2004 8:56:30 PM PST by Waco
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To: tpaine
The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that there is no individual right to own a firearm.

B.S.! They didn't do so in Miller, and they didn't do so before then either. In fact, according to Kopel et. al they have ruled in favor of that right repeatedly, as part of larger arguments about other rights.

3 posted on 03/12/2004 9:13:47 PM PST by coloradan (Hence, etc.)
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To: *bang_list
I'm not sure that with friends like this, we need enemies.
4 posted on 03/12/2004 9:14:25 PM PST by coloradan (Hence, etc.)
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To: tpaine
Excerpted - click for full article
Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38cecf213bb9.htm

FR has a rule about posting excerpts from this source?!
5 posted on 03/12/2004 9:15:35 PM PST by coloradan (Hence, etc.)
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To: tpaine
The citizen who wants a firearm for self-defense will not have access to illicit markets and will be deterred by the higher costs charged in legal transactions.

Oh my. This is tripe. Unless, of course, a person ceases to be a citizen by engaging in an illegal transaction (i.e., argument by definition of terms). I am a citizen, and I have access to every market that I care to engage. So does every other person on the planet.

8 posted on 03/12/2004 9:27:41 PM PST by Cboldt
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To: tpaine
Let's rewrite Bork's ideas slightly. I'll say this for the man -- he is a consistent statist in his own way

The Fourth Amendment was designed to allow citizens to defend themselves against unlawful searches and seizures. Now that the federal government has eavesdropping capabilities far beyond what the Founding Fathers could have imagined, it is hard to imagine why people would need to be protected by something as old fashioned as a requirement that the government fill out a search warrant before searching a citizen's house. -Judge Bork-

16 posted on 03/12/2004 10:35:32 PM PST by Wilhelm Tell (Lurking since 1997!)
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To: tpaine
Thanks for digging this one up. Bork has a large following here, so I thought I needed to post an excerpt from his book to stimulate some thought.
17 posted on 03/12/2004 10:36:22 PM PST by Publius (Die Erde ist gewaltig schön, doch sicher ist sie nicht.)
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To: tpaine
The first part of the Amendment supports proponents of gun control by seeming to make the possession of firearms contingent upon being a member of a state-regulated militia............The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that there is no individual right to own a firearm

If that's Bork's idea of original intent doctrine maybe it's just as well he never made it to the USSC bench. Anyone who thinks the author's of the 2nd amendment intended it to guarantee a state-regulated militia's right to bear arms hasn't studied or understood the background of the amendment.

In 18th century parlance the phrase "well regulated" simply meant well trained. When asked who was the militia as mentioned in the 2nd amendment, Madison answered to the effect that it is the whole of the people, except for a few public officials. The term "people" in the 2nd was also used by the authors in several other amendments in which there is no doubt whatsoever about it's meaning. Why do judges and justices claim to believe it has an altogether different meaning in that one amendment? Personally I don't think they believe that, it's just a convenient way to attempt to justify their incorrect interpretation of an amendment they don't like.

When the Constitution was being written the Americans had just come through an eight year war of independence against the most powerful nation in the world. Without the privately owned arms of the early unorganized militia forces in New England the revolution might have been crushed at the onset before it gained enough momentum to be supported by the rest of the colonies. Also, throughout the war private arms made up an important part of the Continental Army's and Navy's arsenals. The authors knew that well enough, and that was the primary reason for the 2nd amendment, to insure that privately owned arms and the unorganized militia would always be available to provide a bulwark against tyranny, whether foreign or domestic. Anyone who honestly reviews the reasons for the 2nd amendment must come to the conclusion that it was intended to guarantee an individual right, and not a corporate right as so many now claim. Granted, it was intended to guarantee an armed militia, BUT we the people ARE that militia it was intended to guarantee.

I'm sure Bork knows what the author's intended, he just doesn't believe their intent was a good idea. IOW he doesn't believe the "common people" can be trusted to possess weapons, a belief typical of the elitists among us.

Bork's statements regarding the 2nd concern me, not because he will be on a court, but because I now wonder what the supposed conservatives on Bush's list of judicial appointees believe, or rather want to impose on us, concerning the amendment. Any candidate, conservative or liberal, who puts his own notions of what is best for us above the known intent of the authors on any issue shouldn't be given a seat on the court. The question is how many, if any, candidates for judiciary appointments currently in Bush's waiting room have the integrity to place the intent of the author's above their own personal prejudices and beliefs if elevated to the court. If we are to judge by Bork, considered to be a solid conservative constitutionalist, who it seems would be willing to subvert the intentions of the authors in order to avoid nullifying most of the nation's firearms laws, I'm afraid not many of Bush's appointees have that integrity either.

And that reinforces my belief that we can only prevail on the issue through the legislative branch and the political process, and that to depend on the judicial branch to uphold the RKBA will only lead to disappointment and eventual loss of the right completely. After all is said and done, the facts are that the judiciary at it's upper levels is composed mainly of elitists, and historically elitists have always been reluctant to allow commoners to be armed.

19 posted on 03/12/2004 11:08:42 PM PST by epow
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To: tpaine
Quoting Judge Bork: The Second Amendment was designed to allow states to defend themselves against a possible tyrannical national government. Now that the federal government has stealth bombers and nuclear weapons, it is hard to imagine what people would need to keep in the garage to serve that purpose.

Judge Bork seems to share the delusion that people who are fighting a tyrannical government will have to face the US military.

Though that may be somewhat true, the enemy that the people will be focussed on will be elected, appointed, and employed officials of federal and state governments.

Our Founders responded to military attacks with militia force, but much patriot energy was aimed at bureaucrats who attempted to supply tax stamps, for example. Or who consorted with the occupying forces in Boston.

I am sure that modern-day patriots will be no less creative when forced to confront tyranny.

21 posted on 03/13/2004 1:16:11 AM PST by William Tell
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To: tpaine
The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that there is no individual right to own a firearm.

Not true. They basically haven't addressed the issue of wether the right is an individual one or not. The most recent case was back in 1939! It turned on the usefulness of the weapon in a militia/military context, and even on that question the ruling actually was that the lower court erred in assuming that the weapon did have such usefulness without hearing any argument or evidence to that effect, ie. they should not have taken "judicial notice". Of course in that case, no one argued before the Supreme Court except the government. Earlier cases turned on the applicability of the 2nd amendment to state governmental infringements of the RKBA.

22 posted on 03/13/2004 9:20:16 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: tpaine
The Second Amendment was designed to allow states to defend themselves against a possible tyrannical national government. Now that the federal government has stealth bombers and nuclear weapons, it is hard to imagine what people would need to keep in the garage to serve that purpose.

Advanced anti aircraft weapons of course. A single Patriot missle would fit in most garages, although you'd need someone in your militia unit with a barn to hold the fire control equipment. Which would likely work OK from inside the barn, provided the barn and it's roof were not metal.

23 posted on 03/13/2004 9:25:49 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: tpaine
Further proof that the liberals did us all a favor in "Borking" his nomination to the Supreme Court.

As far back as the Dredd Scott decision, it was clear that the Supreme Court considered the right to bear arms to be an individual right.

30 posted on 03/15/2004 6:48:07 AM PST by Redbob (ultrakonservativen click-guerilla)
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To: tpaine
"A gun need not be state of the art to serve a criminal's purpose. Criminals will never have difficulty getting guns. The citizen who wants a firearm for self-defense will not have access to illicit markets and will be deterred by the higher costs charged in legal transactions. The result is a steady supply of guns for criminal aggression and a diminished supply for self-defense."

Bears repeating.

33 posted on 12/25/2012 9:14:09 PM PST by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
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