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To: r9etb
Mr. Rutherford needs to get a bigger gun

I doubt anybody should stake their life on any easily concealable handgun dropping the bad guy 100% of the time, unless you're able to empty the clip into them with some accuracy. To really be sure, bring a 30.06 or 12 gauge. (My point being that this guy had something much more dangerous than his opponent's BB gun.)

I've read reports about .45 ACP bouncing off skulls, and .38 spl is considered substandard by many, perhaps the same for 9mm.

I thought people would be offering their congratulations to this fellow who had the wherewithal to act with (as far as he knew) a quite deadly weapon pointed at him. Another person in his place might have been occupied with filling their shorts at that moment.

Instead it's ".22LR is wimpy, bla bla bla." Who volunteers to stand in front of one?

As Sean Connery said in The Untouchables, Rutherford "went home alive."

Even Carlos Hathcock didn't always drop people with one hit, or even two.

53 posted on 03/12/2004 3:47:00 PM PST by slowry
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To: slowry
The only case I know of of a .45 slug bouncing off somebody's skull happened to my dad.

It was in WWII, he was guarding a group of prisoners in the stockade, and an American soldier accused of rape of an Italian civilian made a break for it. Dad shouted for him to halt, he didn't, Dad aimed at his feet and shot him in the back of the head. It was military ball ammo, extreme range, and the guy had a hard skull, the bullet skimmed around the skull under the skin and lodged in his forehead. It nevertheless knocked him off his feet and out cold.

The IG came wandering around awhile later to see if my dad had violated the guy's civil rights by shooting him in the head, but eventually determined that he hadn't.

It's not the usual result of a .45 hit though. Friend of mine who fought the Chicoms in Korea said that every single time he shot a Chinese soldier with a .45 it dropped him dead in his tracks.

55 posted on 03/12/2004 5:59:02 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of Venery (recess appointment ) TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. . .)
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To: slowry
All you're doing is playing the averages. A .45 has a higher percentage of stop/drop hits than a .22, but your mileage may vary.

I have in fact been shot by a .22 Tenex round (by an idiot in the next rifle station at summer camp) and it barely penetrated the skin under my T-shirt. (I was sure for about 15 seconds that I had been killed, but that's another story.)

I don't think anybody here disagrees that a .22 in your pocket is better than a .44 Mag you left at home, but all other things being equal, Mr. Rutherford needs to up his caliber as far as he comfortably can. Next time he might not be so lucky.

But most criminals (other than the psychos and the crackheads) are essentially cowards, and the mere fact of fighting back will cause most of them to run. (It's the other ones you need to worry about.)

56 posted on 03/12/2004 6:04:59 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of Venery (recess appointment ) TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. . .)
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To: slowry
I doubt anybody should stake their life on any easily concealable handgun dropping the bad guy 100% of the time, unless you're able to empty the clip into them with some accuracy. To really be sure, bring a 30.06 or 12 gauge. (My point being that this guy had something much more dangerous than his opponent's BB gun.)

I've read reports about .45 ACP bouncing off skulls, and .38 spl is considered substandard by many, perhaps the same for 9mm.

There are far too many variables of weapon, ammunition and target condition, shot placement, and many other factors.

When an armed attacker came to kill everyone at the rural residence a ladyfriend and I were babysitting for a couple of our friends on their honeymoon, I hit him twice in the head with my Browning 9mm for certain, possibly three and maybe with all four. He also fired four at me, two of which missed, one which burned me just very slightly, and one of which struck me in my Kevlar vest just beneath the heart. Blood was pouring across his face and into his eyes. He dropped his weapon and went back into the woods next door from where he'd come. Not knowing if he had friends along and waiting, I let him leave, recovered his carbine and waited for our local sheriff, who'd been called and arrived a half hour or so later.

My lady friend was waiting inside the house with my pump shotgun, told that under no circumstances did I intend to come inside, and if anyone attempted entry, she could assume it wasn't me.

When I worked as an armored car messenger making frequent deliveries to the St Louis Federal Reserve Bank, my usual to carry weapons were a .45 Colt Commander and an Ingram M10 machine pistol. I never needed to use them on the job.


59 posted on 03/13/2004 2:04:06 AM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: slowry
Instead it's ".22LR is wimpy, bla bla bla." Who volunteers to stand in front of one?

Well, I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one. However, if it were me doing the shooting, I really don't think I'd want to be packing something that, even after I plug the perp several times, still allows him the option of running away like this one did. If he can run, he can also decide to stand and fire back.

60 posted on 03/13/2004 3:30:26 PM PST by r9etb
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