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To: ravingnutter
"Kerry said he hasn't spoken to Hubbard since the week of April 19, 1971..."

This makes Gerald Nicosia ("Home To War") out to be a liar, since he devotes a couple of pages describing in detail how Kerry and Hubbard had a showdown in July 1971. He even has quotes.

Kerry reviewed Nicosia's book with raves, and even gave him a book party in his Senate office.

"and everybody was disappointed by what they learned back in 1971. To his credit, [Hubbard] did serve his nation. He had simply exaggerated his particular position. But nobody knew it at the time, and those things happen."

I've posted on the threads I've linked above how Kerry tried to minumize Hubbard's lies. He said Hubbard only lied about his ranks. But again according to Nicosia, Kerry challenged Hubbard about having even gone to Vietnam. They almost came to blows.

"Hubbard had done more than just exaggerate his rank in the Air Force. CBS News reporter William Overend, a writer for the network's anchorman Walter Cronkite in 1971, investigated Hubbard's war claims even further and discovered that there was no record of Hubbard having ever served in Vietnam. In addition, Hubbard was not shot down as he alleged and did not receive a Purple Heart for injuries sustained during battle."

No, I've already posted about that in the above linked thread and elsewhere. Hubbard was not a pilot, was not a captain, was not injured in combat and was not in Vietnam.
149 posted on 03/12/2004 9:55:09 AM PST by Hon
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To: Hon
Found on a blog, more phony Veterans named, some with VVAW:

Vietnam Veteran Larry J. O'Daniel has today challenged former fellow officer and veteran, John Forbes Kerry to come clean with charges Kerry has made in the past. O'Daniel, a decorated combat veteran from Vietnam and Phoenix says that the issue is one that the Senator himself has brought on.

Thirty two years ago, Kerry charged decorated war veterans with unspeakable crimes. Those charges were never proven accurate.

Before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971, Kerry asserted he represented veterans, honorably discharged and very highly decorated, who participated in war crimes. These crimes were not isolated incidents, he charged, but crimes committed on a day - to - day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. Crimes that this country made them do.

A problem arises. Kerry's testimony was largely untrue. These charges were investigated then and since. My challenge as we honor veterans of that war and others - Prove them or apologize.

Kerry's widely covered charges largely paralleled that of another highly decorated veteran, LTC Anthony Herbert. Some of the unsubstantiated and uncorroborated accusations of Kerry were almost identical to specific charges leveled by Herbert. Both charged war crimes were ignored, uninvestigated, part of the routine.

Kerry relied upon phonies and wannabes for support. His prominence has allowed current phonies and wannabes to continue the unsubstantiated allegations made all those years ago and which Kerry appears to condone even today. For example:

Elton Manzione, claiming Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) credentials, Kerry's original organization, along with his friends, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz, and Kenneth Van Lesser. They claimed to kill children and remove body parts as part of the notorious Phoenix program. They were neither in Phoenix nor in Vietnam.

Kerry's VVAW leader friend from 1971, Al Hubbard, lied about being an officer, Vietnam Veteran, and sustaining war injuries. Michael Harbert, another VVAW crony of Kerry, lied about his Vietnam service.

Frank Dux: He charged many recognizable Vietnam vets with using techniques bordering on war crimes. Dux was a fraud and non Vietnam Veteran.

Yoshia K. Chee claimed we in Vietnam routinely resorted to the most hideous forms of torture, threw people out of helicopters, and decapitated prisoners. He was a phony.

Mike Beamon, an alleged SEAL and Phoenix assassin, was never in the military.

The Senator's own VVAW and similar groups relied upon people like: K. Barton Osborn, a Vietnam veteran and testifier of atrocities to Congress. He told of prisoners being thrown out of helicopters, a woman starved to death, a prisoner being killed by a six inch dowel pushed through his ear. Osborn was not in Phoenix, refused to name names, and provided no documentation.

Lieutenants Francis Reitemeyer and Michael J. Cohn. Both sought conscientious objector status because of Phoenix. Reitemeyer testified to being assigned to Phoenix as an adviser and maintained a kill quota of fifty bodies a month. They became famous as My Lai hit the news. Neither served in Vietnam, in Phoenix, or had any first hand information. Reitemeyer later denied receiving any assassination training. Both were at Ft. Holabird when I underwent my intelligence training there.

Dux, like others relied, upon the specific charges of Herbert, which were publicly aired in this same time frame as that of Senator Kerry, in order to prove his charges. Herbert was highly decorated, apparently corroborating the Senator¹s charges. Despite highly specific unit naming charges of some 21 war crimes, the facts of a subsequent investigation contradict both Herbert and Kerry. Overall, this contemporaneous investigation lasted seven months. Investigators located and interviewed 333 personnel located in 31 different states, and six different foreign countries, including Vietnam. Out of the 21 incidents involved in the initial charges by Herbert, only seven charges had sufficient substance to merit action or further investigation. Two of the seven had already been acted upon with justice administered. One ended with an article 15 punishment and one with a general court martial.

Two more of the seven involved Vietnamese versus Vietnamese offenses, outside the scope of American jurisprudence and not necessarily proven. The remaining three, at the time of the DA writing, November 5, 1971, were then pending further action by officers exercising general court martial jurisdiction. In other words, it was being further investigated to see if it warranted charges being filed. This shows atrocities and allegations of atrocities were neither condoned nor swept under the rug.

My challenge is clear. Make the specific charges, times, dates, persons, programs, units involved, of war crimes as outlined in your 1971 testimony. Be specific on your own knowledge of these war crimes. Clear the air about Phoenix, your participation, knowledge, even suspicions. Support the investigation of the war crime allegations of your former colleague [Bob Kerrey]. Do not allow his status of being a fellow privileged fraternity member from doing your sworn duty, either now as a Senator, or from that era, where as an officer and gentleman, you claimed personal knowledge of atrocities.

Either itemize those incidents or apologize to the veterans of Vietnam whose reputations, valor, and integrity you sullied then and now and renounce those charges you then and now refuse to itemize. I make this challenge as a veteran of Vietnam, Phoenix, and as a former fellow officer and colleague. Duty - Honor - Country - These are our obligations. You are at a fork in a path. Integrity or disgrace. Your choice.

Source

167 posted on 03/12/2004 10:54:32 AM PST by ravingnutter
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