The Jews Who Cried Wolf (Hubbub over The Passion)

National Review Online ^ | March 05, 2004 | Julia Gorin

[Inyokern]

That's because Joe "Jew Obsessed" Sobran didn't write it, it was coined by Lou Rollins a prominent Holocaust denier.

I remember reading it in a Sobran column. Did he get it from this guy Rollins?

[Inyokern]

Have you been trying to save Jews from Hell

If Jews are sons of the devil, as it says in the Book of John, then we can't be saved from hell anyway. So just leave us alone, OK?

And, while you are at it, leave us out your passion plays.

[Inyokern]

You ascribe to us beliefs that we do not hold and want to make us prove those beliefs.

I just recently read that, in response to this movie, a pastor hung a sign on his church saying "The Jews killed Jesus."

Are you saying this is NOT Christian belief? This man is an ordained Christian minister. Are you?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

If Jews are sons of the devil, as it says in the Book of John, then we can't be saved from hell anyway. So just leave us alone, OK? And, while you are at it, leave us out your passion plays.

You were complaining about Missyme trying to save Jews from Hell and offer them the gift of Eternal Life. So, I told her to stop it.

And now you're upset at me??

Golly... I guess a fella just can't win for losing with you, eh?

[Texas2step]

I just recently read that, in response to this movie, a pastor hung a sign on his church saying "The Jews killed Jesus."

I just recently read (for the upteenth time ;-) that a Jew, Caiaphas, plead with a Roman governor to have Jesus executed. Am I supposed to judge all Jews by the action of this one?

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot ask us not to judge all Jews by the actions of some 2000 year ago, and then judge all Christians by some wack job who does not hold the beliefs of the majority of the Christians.

Which is it Inyo? Besides, that guy isn't here, we are. You want to disrespect us for the statements of someone who we don't even know?

Are you saying this is NOT Christian belief?

For the 100th time, at least, Inyo, listen close:

WE, AS CHRISTIANS, DO NOT BLAME "THE JEWS" FOR THE DEATH OF CHRIST. IT'S NOT OUR BELIEF, SO QUIT SAYING THAT'S WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Sorry, I don't mean to yell, but normal discourse doesn't seem to seep into that brain of yours.

Now, listen some more...

WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS, THE CHRIST, WILLINGLY GAVE UP HIS LIFE AS THE ATONING BLOOD SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. IT WAS GOD'S PLAN THAT HE DIE. IT WAS GOD'S PLAN THAT CAIAPHUS, PILATE, AND OTHERS, PLAY A PART, AND THAT JESUS COULD HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO, AT ANY TIME.

That's our belief. Period.

This man is an ordained Christian minister. Are you?

Yes, not that it's any of your concern. It makes no difference. We are all sinners, ordained or not. We'll make mistakes. I do not speak for all Christians. This idiot, who placed this sign, sure does not speak for all Christians. If I say something that goes against the beliefs of Christians here, they will "call" me on it.

I don't judge all Jews by your behavior (and that's a good thing). You shouldn't judge all Christians by the behavior of one man either.

Now, which will it be? Do you want us to judge the Jews based on the actions of a few, so you can continue to judge us based on the actions of people we don't even know? Or, should we start over and be respectful of each others beliefs and faiths.

It's your call Inyo. You have to let what we believe some Jews were involved in be okay and show SOME respect for us.

When you call the One we believe to be God a THIEF. It doesn't sit well. When you call the people we believe were used by God to write what we believe to be His Holy Word, THUGS and TRAITORS, it's not going to be well received. Bottom line, it's disrespectful. It's anti-Christian. It's hateful.

We do not disrespect your faith. We do not disrespect what you believe. You're being extremely rude and crude not to show some respect for us, who unarguably are the Jews biggest friends and allies.

If someone were my friend, I'm not going to call them names and slam their beliefs. If I did, they wouldn't be my friend much longer. Thankfully most of your Jewish brethern don't act the way you do, and we're not going to hold your disrespectful actions and words against "the Jews". We will, however, hold them against you.

I will continue to support the Jews, Israel, and Jewish causes. I will not, however, consider you to be someone who is my friend. I'm sure that you have no problem with that, but in this day and time, we can all use all the friends we can get.

[SJackson]

that makes it no less, or no more true. Probably a little more accurately written "some Jews hate" rather than "the Jews hate". …That said, I find it curious who you choose to defend. Your friend Inyo, a self-claimed Jew, spews anti-Christian screeds every chance he gets. I know you are aware of that, and I've yet to see you call him on his ranting. Surely you realize that he's not helping himself, or your people

First the statement An anti-semite is not a person who hates Jews, it's a person whom the Jews hate is false. There are antisemites in the world, billions of them. And yes, there are a few Christian antisemites.

Yes, it’s possible the posters friend made it up, but it’s a well-known phrase. It’s used, like the canard “I can’t be an antisemite, I like Arabs”, as a way of denying the existence of anti-Semitism. IMO to defend Mel Gibson from charges of holocaust denial or antisemitism with quotes from Holocaust deniers is as stupid as the posters who defend him with Talmudic translations from hate sites. As to whether antisemitism exists, good grief Mel does and he says Holocaust denial is a sin. I’m not sure what the argument is on that score.

As to Inyoken, I’ve posted to you far more than him, and I don’t post to you much. In fact I don’t ever remember a discussion with him. He could be a Jew posting from a Yeshiva in Brooklyn, a Muslim in an internet café in Ramallah or any number of other things, as could you or I to the posters that don’t know us. Your contention that somehow we’re friends is bizarre.

[SJackson]

Sobran usually gets credit for it. It's my understanding LA (Louis) Rollins coined it some years before. Rollin's isn't that well known, he's a holocaust denier loosely associated with the IHR, but if he did coin it, he deserves the credit.

[.30Carbine]

The sermon you cite has occurred to me as well. So has that of Stephan before the Sanhedrin in Acts 6:

"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears!
You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute?
They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One.
And now you have betrayed and murdered him--
you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels
but have not obeyed it."

When they [the Sanhedrin] heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him

But [according to Acts 4] many who heard the message [delivered by Peter] believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

When the people heard this [Peter's sermon in Acts 2], they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

The message of the Gospel is the same today as it was in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, and reaction to it is still deeply divided. It's worth noting that Saul, who witnessed and agreed with the stoning of Stephen, later became Paul. I hold that same hope for Sauls of today, if only we keep preaching the Gospel of the Christ, and Him crucified.

[missyme]

Again, you speak from which you don't know.....You don't know what I have done or failed to do...So go head and play a guessing game with yourself, because you are and expert at it...

[missyme]

Inyokern, you are not an "US" you are a solo act, that is how you came in the world and that is how you will go out...You might not want to hear the Christian Message, but many people do, so you have no business trying to tell me or any other True to Gospel Christian that they cannot share there faith as Christ taught us to do....

You play or try to play G-d, Judge and Jury on many many threads you post on. Is you views from the Holy Bible? I think not...Where you get your views is beyond comprehension...IMO you are brainwashed by people that have taught you Christianity is a religion of hate for the Jews. You fail to see that Christianity is not rooted from ISLAM, or Buddah or New Age it is rooted from "JUDIASM" that is why Christians support Israel, because it is what we are taught from G0D not from any human beings distorted view of Jesus Christ, why do you think Jesus came to earth anyways, because human beings do not get it right....You choose not to believe in Jesus as the reedemer for sins, I suggest you obey what G-d has taught you in TORAH for that is how G-d will judge you...This is your choice and I am perfectly fine with it...

[missyme]

Inyokern,
EVIL presents itself in every color every creed, every religion..Welcome to Earth.

Not one person walking on this planet is not a sinner not one....So trying to justify one minister that I understand aplogized for hanging a sign Jews killed Christ does not cut the mustard, he was wrong just as you and everyone that has slammed Mel Gibson his family, Jesus Christ, The Gospels is wrong...But I truly believe that "YOU" and others that spew hate for the New Testament do this out of "Fear", for some reason Jesus Christ to you is a insult to your faith, and traditions and laws in Judaism.

When you have some Jewish people on this topic start to abandon there family members by disowning them for marrying a Christian,this is not from G-d's word or G-d's law. When you views are more important than what G-d has taught, you need to continue to read your bible and pray, and by the way "LISTEN" something you do not do very well.

[American_Centurion]

Hollywood and popular culture, at least leftist culture, have no problem at all kicking christians around.

Double standard indeed.

[Inyokern]

You were complaining about Missyme trying to save Jews from Hell and offer them the gift of Eternal Life. So, I told her to stop it.

How's this? You can go to heaven with Hutton Gibson and I will go the other place.

[Inyokern]

When you call the One we believe to be God a THIEF. It doesn't sit well.

I wish you would quote exactly what I said rather than make inflammatory statements like this.

I did NOT call Jesus a thief, as if he were a habitual thief, I merely pointed out that one his actions -- taking corn from a farmer's field -- might be considered a sin.

I think this is a legitimate point of discussion and I am sure it has been discussed ad nauseum in Christian divinity schools.

I strongly object to your characterization of this as "calling God a thief." This is a cheap shot.

[Inyokern]

When you call the people we believe were used by God to write what we believe to be His Holy Word, THUGS and TRAITORS, it's not going to be well received.

Look. Matthew was a publican. The Gospel of Matthew says that. What's more, he was a customs house official. Customs house officials were considered the worst kind of traitors.

Matthew would have been a hated, shunned man in Judea because of his profession. He also would have been excommunicated from the Temple. You can look on Christian websites and find all of this information. It is not in dispute.

The idea that Matthew wrote the Gospel to the Jews, as if Jews would believe anything Matthew said, is laughable.

Are you denying all this?

Bottom line, it's disrespectful. It's anti-Christian. It's hateful.

It is OK for Christians to call the Pharisees hypocrites, but not OK for me to point out that Matthew was a traitor. Please explain.

[Inyokern]

We do not disrespect your faith.

When you claim that the Pharisees participated in a late-night trial that violated Jewish law in just about every respect, did not provide any defense attorney, which their law required, and knowingly convicted an innocent man, you disrespect my faith.

When you claim that the Pharisees informed on this man to the Romans, something that would have been considered a grave sin, you disrespect my faith.

When you claim that the High Priest said "One man must die for the people," something that is 180 degees in violation of Jewish theology, you disrespect my faith. When you claim that the Chief Priests said, "We have no king but Caesar," you disrespect my faith.

Need I go on?

It would be one thing if you could prove that these things actually happened, but you cannot. You basically have only the words of the traitor Matthew, the words of Mark and Luke who were not witnesses and the words of whoever wrote the Gospel of John (almost certainly not John the apostle).

[missyme]

You still don't get it do you Inyokern!

Jesus did not come in royalty to sit with the Arrogant Elite! he did not come to be treated like a King, he was not enticed by power, money,self aborsption WHY??? because G-d is not about that!

He came to heal the Sinners! the lepors, the samaritans, the poor the humble the meek that were rejected by many of the Pharisees.

Even though I do not believe your total interpetation of Matthew, The Apostles including Matthew, followed Jesus, LISTENED to him, took part in everything he did, Jesus loved them and forgave them, and they became an instrument of his PEACE....

And they all died some horrific deaths in defending the one they followed.

REMEMBER INYOKERN, YOU MIGHT FEEL THE HOLLYWOOD ELITE OR THE RICH AND FAMOUS OR THE ARROGANT AND SELF RICHETOUS WILL INHERIT THE WORLD.

BUT THE ONE AND TRUE LIVING GOD SAID:THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH

[nmh]

If Jews knew the Torah better they'd be Christians. It's FORETOLD that Jesus would come. It describes His circumstances and that the Jews would mostly reject Him. I;d say they're still being rebellious.

[nmh]

"Roman Catholicism claims knowledge of certain information about the Passion that the bare bible, and Protestants, do not."

It is the departure from the Bible that stops me from raving about it. I was MOST uncomfortable with Mary being repeatedly highlighted. She was just a vessel and a sinner like the rest of us.

As for your statement it is false. Catholics should only be teaching what is in the Bible since it is inspired by God. God is not sleight of hand with knowledge. He makes it very clear in the Bible that what "is written" is what Christians need to know and adhere to. BTW, count how many time "it is written" is written IN the Bible. Still, despite the numerous times, people still wish to ADD on and CHANGE what He has taught.

[missyme]

Please tell that to Inyokern! As a Christian I am finding it harder and harder to discuss Christianity with him without letting it become where my frustration turns into insulting him..not good. I am going to Church in about an hour and must pray for the ones who persecute Jesus and there righ here on FR...Today is PURIM a Jewish holiday, my afternoon will be reading the Book of Esther as I believe in not just half of the GOOD BOOK but the entire Book (The OT and NT)