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Frank Rich: 'Passion' and the U.S. culture war
IHT ^ | 03/05/04 | Frank Rich

Posted on 03/05/2004 8:26:00 AM PST by Pikamax

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To: churchillbuff
having one's faith viciously defamed (even when it's a faith that mandates turning the other cheek) creates a real temptation to respond with bitterness, and a lot of us have given into that temptation.

I'm probably misunderstanding you. Are you saying that it's part of your faith that the Jews were screaming in condemnation of Jesus and urging his death by crucifixion? It's part of your faith that the Sanhedrin recommended crucifixion as capital punishment? It's part of your faith that Pontius Pilate was passive rather than the cruel leader he was? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

But the hatred directed toward christianity in so many of these anti-Mel columns IS truly breathtaking.

Is it really hatred towards Christianity? Or towards Mel's interpretation of the crucifixion?

61 posted on 03/05/2004 6:48:33 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: per loin; Polybius; walden
Frank Rich again? Is he afraid that if he doesn't condemn Gibson often enough, he will lose his position on today's Sanhedrin of Jewish journalists?

I find it interesting that no one, to date, has commented in response to this statement. Polybius; walden - what do you think of it?

62 posted on 03/05/2004 7:00:14 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
"Frank Rich again? Is he afraid that if he doesn't condemn Gibson often enough, he will lose his position on today's Sanhedrin of Jewish journalists?"

I don't like the analogy because "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity, and to lump religious Jews with secular Jews is unfair. I guess Rich is of Jewish ancestry (which, to me, is about as relevant, when applied to an American, as Scottish, or Mexican, or Lower Slobovian), but I have no idea whether he's religious or not. However, I think Rush Limbaugh hit it on the head when he said in reference to Andy Roony that he had to say what he did in order to be allowed to stay in the club of sophisticated liberal elite opinion-makers (or, so THEY think ;) .) Same idea, but better expressed.

Thinking about all of the criticism of the "Passion", though, I did realize that secularists and religious Jews DO share one thing-- because none of them believe in the divinity of Christ, they all also disbelieve in all of the miracles Christ performed in the Gospels. (For the record, lots of liberal Christians also disbelieve in the miracles.) That casts the behavior of Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin in an altogether different light-- if Jesus hadn't really performed miracles, then these men were just ruthlessly power-hungry and intolerant. Despicable. But, when I look at them in the context of my firm Christian belief in Christ's miracles, and realize that they also knew that the miracles were real, that changes everything. From the perspective of the Sanhedrin, it wasn't a question of whether Christ was God or merely a man, it was a question of whether he was God or the Devil. Their fear is understandable. No doubt they thought that, if he was truly the Son of God, as the high priests, God would have let them know that he was on the way. Ergo, he had to be the Devil. This is not to say that I completely absolve them of their jealous desire to retain position, power, and control over the people, but it does make them much more understandable, more human.

I had a discussion afterwards with the two Christians I saw the movie with about how we identified with the various characters. My feeling then, and now, was that I hope if I had been there that I would have been one of the good guys, but what are the odds? I have seen parts of Pilate and Caiaphas in myself, even parts of the mob shouting for Christ's death. Or, I could have just been one of the crowd that turned away, indifferent to His fate and just wanting to avoid trouble. At best, I could have been Peter, who denied Christ three times out of fear. The only comfort I take is that no way could I have been a Roman soldier.

It's been a week now since I saw it, and I have finally managed to distill what the film left me with-- an overpowering realization of my own unworthiness, and a huge feeling of gratitude for the incredible gift of God's love.
63 posted on 03/05/2004 7:59:45 PM PST by walden
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To: h.a. cherev
Their religious education was obscenely warped by the Hitler Youth but they truly believed they were saving Christianity and Germany by acting like savages towards the Jews, the Slavs and the other untermenchen.

Could you clarify this for me, please. It seems you are saying that the feelings for the Jews in Christian Europe was only warped by the Hitler Youth. I probably am misreading you.

I will clarify.

No, I am not referring to the mere "feelings" but the intensity of the feelings and, most importantly, how the feelings were translated into action.

Was Europe anti-Semitic? It sure was.

America was anti-Semitic too back then.

Many parts of Europe are anti-Semitic right now.

However, there is a vast difference between the "I don't like Jews" anti-Semitism and rounding up 6 million human beings for extermination.

Was Germany during World War One anti-Semitic? Yes, it was. During World War One, being Catholic in the United States would not win you much favor either.

However, in Germany during World War One, Germany was tolerant enough to lionize it's Jewish war heroes.

Lt. Wilhelm Frankl, was awarded the Pour le Merite (The "Blue Max"), Germany's equivalent to the Congressional Medal of Honor.

His portrait was sold as a "Sanke Card" which were photos of German war heroes (mostly the glamorous aviators) that were the military version of baeball hero cards in World War one Germany. Frankl's Sake Card, when it was issued, bore the inscription: "Our most successful flyer, Lieutenant Frankl."

Another German World War One Jewish war hero was Fritz Beckhardt who was awarded the Iron Cross (First Class), the House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords, the Hessian Medal of Bravery and the Hessian Order of Ernst Ludwig.

Fritz Beckhardt, in one of war's greatest ironies, decorated his World War One German aircraft with a swastika. Of course, back during World War One, the swastika had no political meaning and was merely a universally recognized good luck charm. Raul Luftberry, of the Lafayette Escadrille, also decorated his SPAD with a "good Luck" swastika.

Fritz Beckhardt's love and loyalty for Germany was so great that, after the Armistice was signed, Beckhardt refused to deliver his plane over to the Allied enemy and instead flew it to Switzerland.

And how was Beckhardt's loyalty to Germany repaid during the Nazi era? Beckhardt ended up in a concentration camp. Fortunately, Hermann Goering (a World War One aviator himself), at the pleading of another World War One German Jewish aviator, Berthold Guthmann, secured Beckhardt's release and Beckhardt escaped from Germany.

A few years later, Berthold Guthmann was sent to the concentration camps that he had saved Beckhardt from and he died there.

World War One Germany, despite all of it's anti-Semitic faults, was a nation that Jews were willing to fight for, to die for and to defy Allied orders for, as Beckhardt did to preserve the honor of his squadron.

Even monsters such as Hermann Goering retained a bit of the honor of Imperial Germany when he arranged the freedom of his old Jewish comrade, Fritz Beckhardt.

But Nazi Germany was a different creature.

The Jewish war heroes were expunged from the list of Por le Merite winners. German Jewish war heroes were sent off to extermination camps as if they were insects.

That quatum leap from Jewish Por le Merite recipients to Jewish untermenchen deserving of extermination was a Nazi ideological creation.

That extreme ideology had to be instilled in the tabula rosa that was German youth. The mechanism for that indoctrination was the Hitler Youth.

That is what I mean by my refernce to the Hitler Youth.

Mere anti-Semitism produces a Dreyfus Affair.

Nazi ideology, ingrained into the psyche of millions of youths by the Hitler Youth, produced 6 million dead Jews ten year down the road.

That is the difference.

64 posted on 03/05/2004 8:10:11 PM PST by Polybius
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To: walden
"Frank Rich again? Is he afraid that if he doesn't condemn Gibson often enough, he will lose his position on today's Sanhedrin of Jewish journalists?" I don't like the analogy because "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity, and to lump religious Jews with secular Jews is unfair.

LOL. And what P.O.ed me was his use of the term "Sanhedrin of Jewish journalists".

It's been a week now since I saw it, and I have finally managed to distill what the film left me with-- an overpowering realization of my own unworthiness..."

I hope you're mistaken. As children of G-D, we are all worthy of His love...even though we sin. Perhaps you meant something else?

65 posted on 03/05/2004 8:12:48 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: Polybius
Thank you. That clarifies your position.
66 posted on 03/05/2004 8:14:57 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: Edmund Burke
Keep your mouth shut and just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Wow! For a Jew to feel secure in YOUR America, we should just shut up, sit back, and enjoy whatever ride you'd like to take us on.

Have a nice day.

67 posted on 03/05/2004 8:20:39 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
"I hope you're mistaken. As children of G-D, we are all worthy of His love...even though we sin. Perhaps you meant something else?"

Well, no, my feeling really IS unworthiness, at least right now. Although I was raised in the church, I fell away from my faith and only truly became a Christian a little over a year ago. So, since I have twenty-five years of sins to repent, I'm having a very busy Lent. ;) I am very much looking forward to Easter!
68 posted on 03/05/2004 8:30:13 PM PST by walden
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To: h.a. cherev
"Are you saying that it's part of your faith that the Jews were screaming in condemnation of Jesus and urging his death by crucifixion? It's part of your faith that the Sanhedrin recommended crucifixion as capital punishment? It's part of your faith that Pontius Pilate was passive rather than the cruel leader he was?"

Have you read our Gospels? If not, I think you should. That's Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, starting at the Garden of Gesthemene in each. Gibson's interpretation is entirely in accordance with the scriptures. But the point that your phrasing misses is that Jesus was a Jew, as was Mary, Mary Magdalene, John, Peter, Veronica (the lady who tried to give Christ a drink of water), Simon of Cyrene (who carried His cross), Joseph of Arimathaea and the other Jewish high priest who defended him before Caiaphas, etc.. Other than the Romans, EVERYONE was Jewish. Like any group of people anywhere at any time, some were good, some were bad, and some were in the middle.
69 posted on 03/05/2004 8:43:45 PM PST by walden
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To: walden
So, since I have twenty-five years of sins to repent

Well, best wishes for your success. You might want to take a page out of Judaism which urges us to "repent one day before your death."

70 posted on 03/05/2004 8:48:03 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: walden
Have you read our Gospels? If not, I think you should. That's Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, starting at the Garden of Gesthemene in each.

Yes, but it was over 30 years ago. I always say about getting older, "memory is the second thing to go."

Gibson's interpretation is entirely in accordance with the scriptures.

It seems that is one of the points of disagreement. While I appreciate your viewpoint, my Presbyterian Minister friend takes exception to the depiction of Pilate and Caiaphas. A Catholic priest questions the Sanhedrin meeting on Passover and putting the high priest in a position where he could get blood on himself. From my knowlege, Jewish "priests" aren't even allowed in cemetaries. These are evidently parts which don't make sense. If the gospels say they happened, perhaps that's one of the reasons Jews don't take them seriously.

71 posted on 03/05/2004 9:01:58 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: Pikamax
Frank Rich? Doesn't he write strictly for the Upper West Side snob litter?
72 posted on 03/05/2004 9:07:15 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: h.a. cherev
I would like to talk more on this, but I have a very busy day planned and won't be able to get back to this conversation until this evening.

The portions of the Gospels that relate to Gibson's film (excluding the flashbacks) are really VERY short. Here they are:

Matthew chapters 26-27, really starting at 26:36, but the earlier part of 26 is also helpful in setting the stage

Mark 14-15, really from 14:32, but same comment above

Luke 22-23, really from 22:40, ditto

John 18-19

Here is an easily readable full text of our bible online:
http://etext.virginia.edu/frames/bibleframe.html
The revised standard is more readable, but the King James version is more lyrical.

I have read that John 13-17 should ONLY be read by true believers, but if you can suspend disbelief for a moment, it might be helpful in understanding Christians. John is the most mystical and difficult of the Gospels, although it appears on the surface to be easy (John was the guy with Mary and Mary Magdalene throughout the movie.)

While I appreciate your viewpoint, my Presbyterian Minister friend takes exception to the depiction of Pilate and Caiaphas. A Catholic priest questions the Sanhedrin meeting on Passover and putting the high priest in a position where he could get blood on himself.

Over 2000 years of our history, Christians have repeatedly wrestled with this issue-- do we listen to the priests and ministers or do we read the bible ourselves? Pretty much everyone has concluded that we listen, but if we see any conflict, we trust the bible. It irritates the clergy to no end. ;)

73 posted on 03/06/2004 6:14:34 AM PST by walden
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To: h.a. cherev
BTTT.
74 posted on 03/06/2004 6:23:09 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: Pikamax
With its laborious build-up to its orgasmic spurtings of blood and other bodily fluids, the film is constructed like nothing so much as a porn movie, replete with slo-mo climaxes and pounding music. Of all the "Passion" critics, no one has nailed its artistic vision more precisely than the journalist Christopher Hitchens, who called it a homoerotic "exercise in lurid sadomasochism" for those who "like seeing handsome young men stripped and flayed alive over a long period of time."

This man needs prayers, badly.

75 posted on 03/06/2004 6:34:28 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Eala
Gibson's picture, by contrast, is a work of personal inspiration. Its success at the box office may erode the hegemony of the depraved collective, especially as it provides far less leeway for rip-off imitation than other successful movies of originality and individuality.

This movie is going to do nothing less than change the direction of Hollywood.

Until now, the new mediums - moving pictures with sound, electronically transmitted - have for the most part resisted depiction of transcendent concepts.

Gibson may have drawn the first sketchy explorer's map. The Passion of the Christ is a true work of art, and enters the inner life.

Beautiful and true.

76 posted on 03/06/2004 6:41:12 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: h.a. cherev
I have been on several Passion threads. You can just feel the love of the Passion supporters. \sarcasm.

I have read many myself and concluded that the film's detractors either don't understand it or, much worse, are just hateful. So which group do you fit into?

77 posted on 03/06/2004 6:44:01 AM PST by Iowegian
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To: Pikamax
This is just sad, Rich is a joke.
78 posted on 03/06/2004 6:45:37 AM PST by Mr.Clark (From the darkness....I shall come)
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To: h.a. cherev
"You can just feel the love of the Passion supporters. \sarcasm."

I saw the other comment to this, and I just want to say that I have also seen the anger of some Christians on these threads. I'm praying for them, because they seem to be forgetting the most basic of Christ's commands to us-- to forgive our enemies, to love our enemies, to love one another as He loved us.

Christianity is a VERY tough faith, and the better one understands it, the tougher it becomes. In fact, I think one objection that liberal Christian clergymen have with the "Passion" is that it is NOT watered-down and comfortable-- it presents the demands of following Christ in all its uncompromising difficulty. They're afraid that it will drive people away from the church, but it's a needless fear.


79 posted on 03/06/2004 7:17:48 AM PST by walden
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To: h.a. cherev
My local Jewish paper published two articles - one expressed the views of a number of Rabbis who'd seen the picture, the other were the views of several Christian clergy who'd seen the picture. None of the Rabbis had anything positive to say. Only one of the Christian clergy said the movie was anti-Semitic, but all of them expressed some level of concern about the negative images of Jews in the film.

One of the first things you learn in the newspaper game, is that the paper can express any opinion it wants to, by simply choosing who is invited to express his opinion in the stories.

At this point, it's a lost cause. Too many people have actually seen the movie, and formed their own opinion. A lot more are going to see it. All the charges of "Anti-Semite" are going to do is make Christians less interested in hearing the arguments the next time

Recall the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!"

80 posted on 03/06/2004 7:36:15 AM PST by SauronOfMordor (No anchovies!)
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