Posted on 03/05/2004 8:26:00 AM PST by Pikamax
I have to run. Thanks for taking the time to chat and have a great day.
O my. This fellow has some kind of persecution complex. No one is vilifying Jews for heaven's sake; but it's open-season on liberals because Rich is right: We are in a culture war. The "so-called secularists" are fair game. Rich should just stop crying and whining and realize that men of the Left do not own the "commons" -- the public discourse -- lock, stock, and barrel.
Perhaps this very realization is what has driven Frank Rich into such a frenzy over Mel Gibson and The Passion.
Oh Frank, your lies are so transparent.
When a columnist -- like Rich or Dowd -- becomes a machine that simply responds automatically when certain buttons are pushed, what's the point of reading their work?
What a moron.
I guess I should make it clear that I am writing rhetorically in regards to the Leftists who make it a profession to be easily offended.
Is there no concept of the individual Jew as imperfect human beings apart from the entire Jewish people? . Were the Nazi's Christian? . No need to respond to these questions, but I've asked them of other Christians. Would you be surprised to learn that they don't consider any of these types to be Christian? The only ones they consider Christians were those who helped the Jews.
Was Nazi Germany Christian? You betcha.
Of course, it can be argued that the top Nazi leadership was atheist and that true Christians would not have act that way, etc. Be that as it may, most of the rank and file German troops in the trenches considered themselves to be good Germans and good Christians. Their religious education was obscenely warped by the Hitler Youth but they truly believed they were saving Christianity and Germany by acting like savages towards the Jews, the Slavs and the other untermenchen.
Their belt buckles even declared Gott Mit Uns ..God is with us.
To answer your question more directly, no Jew likes to learn that someone who was born Jewish has committed some misdeed which might reflect badly on all Jews. But, strange as you may find it, that's how we think...that the misdeeds of one are reflected upon us all.
It goes both ways. It is very embarrassing to know that young Germans believed that they were being good Catholics and good Lutherans by serving the Third Reich. It is comforting to know that millions of American Catholics and Protestants though they were serving God and Country by fighting such evil.
However, the problem comes when the guilt felt by one party is acted out in such a way so that a second party must never mention any wrongs of the first party.
My particular family tree all goes back to Spain. So, I have to face the fact that some of my ancestors acted wrongly towards some of your Sefardi ancestors or distant cousins during the Inquisition.
In America, with its Protestant heritage, the sins of Spain and the Catholic Church are magnified and those of England are minimized. Everyone knows about the Spanish Inquisition and about the expulsion of the Jews from Spain after 1492. However, how many Americans know that, in 1217, English Jews were made to wear yellow badges or that all Jews were expelled from England in 1290 not to return for 350 years?
For 200 years, while Jews lived in the Catholic Kingdoms of Spain, England had been ethnically cleansed of all Jews. But, today, only Spain is vilified for it's treatment of the Jews.
The History of the Jews in England
I do not take it personally but, rather, as a reminder that Mankind is made up of saints and the most despicable sinners and everything in between.
Caiphas and Toquemada and Calvin and Cromwell were all peas in the same pod of intolerance of any deviation from their religious orthodoxy.
Be that as it may, I haven't seen any movies about Torquemada or Henry VIII. Nor have I seen any movies where Christians were stereotyped. Maybe I need to spend less time on FR and more time in the theaters. :-)
You wanna Toquemada movie? How about a musical?
Go out and rent Mel Brooks History of the World, Part I and treat yourself to The Inquisiton Song. I promise I wont take it personally. ;-)
The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way."
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way. We got a little game that you might wanna play,
so pull that handle, try you're luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"
"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"
An amazing piece of deductive reasoning...except that you're mistaken. I know several of the clergy who were quoted in the article. One (a Presbyterian Minister) is coming over to my house for Passover seder. Although I joke that I am the most right wing person in the world (when I look to my right, no one is there) this man, as well as several others, are not what I would consider to be liberal. Moreover, I know the editor of the paper. Although I would consider him liberal, he is fair in publishing opinions which differ radically from his....fairness is not a mark of the average liberal....I'm sure you'll agree with that.
However, the more I read of these "Passion" reviews, the more I am coming to believe that Christianity is something that can only truly be understood, if at all, from the inside. Sort of like how no woman truly understands men, or vice-versa. Know what I mean?
Yes, I do.
I've enjoyed our chat and wish you well. The last comment is yours.
I see. I've met more than a few freepers on these Passion threads who might fit that description. But then the term, "easily offended" is sort of an elastic yardstick. No matter, the Foxman's of the world have rendered the term "anti-Semitism" meaningless through their overuse.
Was Nazi Germany ?Christian?? You betcha.
Well, there's a first time for everything.
Their religious education was obscenely warped by the Hitler Youth but they truly believed they were saving Christianity and Germany by acting like savages towards the Jews, the Slavs and the other untermenchen.
Could you clarify this for me, please. It seems you are saying that the feelings for the Jews in Christian Europe was only warped by the Hitler Youth. I probably am misreading you.
However, the problem comes when the guilt felt by one party is acted out in such a way so that a second party must never mention any wrongs of the first party.
I don't think that's the case here but I can understand your position. Several of the reviews mentioned not only some historical inaccuracies regarding Pilate and the Jewish High Priest, but decribed the Jewish mob in stereotypical terms. I don't think it's a question of mentioning the wrongs of one particular party, but how those wrongs are portrayed.
Just to set the record straight, I have no problem with the movie whatsoever. But I can see how others would.
However, how many Americans know that, in 1217, English Jews were made to wear yellow badges or that all Jews were expelled from England in 1290 not to return for 350 years?
Very, very few. Besides, those of us who are not too thrilled with the English don't have to go back that far to find something to justify our feelings.
For 200 years, while Jews lived in the Catholic Kingdoms of Spain, England had been ethnically cleansed of all Jews. But, today, only Spain is vilified for it's treatment of the Jews.
I think "vilified" is a little strong. After all, it was over 500 years ago. I've been around quite a while and while I know many people who won't touch anything made in Germany, I haven't heard anyone say they won't buy Spanish products.
You wanna Toquemada movie? How about a musical?
Go out and rent Mel Brooks? ?History of the World, Part I? and treat yourself to ?The Inquisiton Song?. I promise I won?t take it personally. ;-)
OK, OK, we're going to start joking now.
If I were you, if you want to feel "more secure", I would try keeping a lower profile instead of trying to run the country when, self admitingly you only comprise 2% of the population. Keep your mouth shut and just sit back and enjoy the ride.
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