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To: lockeliberty; Alamo-Girl; marron; unspun; restornu; xzins; logos
Here's the bottom line. We all have to get over the idea that America is a "Christian" country.

Dear lockeliberty, but IMHO that is the very idea that America must never get over. For it is her birthright, her inheritance, her foundation in truth -- and the only way she can survive in a world that involves implacable enemies determined to hate and to kill Americans -- not to mention Christians and Jews (and as it turns out, Hindus and Muslims and just about everybody else, just for the fun of it) -- just for spite....

But here's the problem: Christians are called to love, to live in love -- not hate. So now I gather we Christians have to delve into the meaning -- assuming there is one -- of that trite expression, "tough love."

I certainly understand and empathize with your deeply felt reaction to the increasingly exposed corruptions of the organized churches, locke. I think you are certainly right to conclude that too often, the institutional churches have fallen into the typically modern habit of wanting to be "up-to-date" with the spirit of the age.

And yet we know that, as repositories and confessors of eternal truths pertaining to God's relations with Man and the Universe as proclaimed and established by God and communicated in the Holy Scriptures, the various churches have no authority whatsoever to chase after modern fads and fashions. To the extent that they do this, they are derelict in the execution of their "prime directive," so to speak.

House cleanings are needed all over the lot. Or surely we Christians will find ourselves in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "churchless Christianity" pretty soon.

God's revealed Truth -- His Son -- is eternal. He was never born -- in the language of the Nicene Creed, the Son was "begotten, not made" by the Father. And He will never die. He is the very Light unto Man and the world, the Redeemer of sin, and ultimate judge of sinners.

But if the candlestands of that life-giving and redeeming Light -- the churches -- should prove ineffective, or worse, counterproductive to their divine calling as Light-bearers, then it's time either to repair the candlestands, or ...

That's a HUGE "or." I'm not prepared to discuss hypothetical sequels because, frankly, I'm no fortune teller.

I hope you will pray with me for the spiritual revival of the churches, the religions of man, of whatever denomination.

You probably think I'm some kind of crazy liberal to say such a thing. But I think of it this way: May God's Will be done, here on earth as it is in heaven.

For all you or I know, God might have a hankering for a Unitarian or an LDS or a Buddhist or even the occasional Muslim. Perhaps maybe even a Plato. Who are you or I to say He "shall be prevented" from loving them, saving them, if that is His heart's desire? Who is to say that Christ's sacrifice does not pertain to all men -- past, present, and future?

I am convinced that God loves man. And not just in the "abstract," if you get my drift. Though there are times when I sure do feel perplexed about why He chose to love -- US, faithless that we ever seem to prove ourselves to be.

Thanks for your lovely post, locke.

31 posted on 03/04/2004 9:25:24 PM PST by betty boop (The purpose of marriage is to civilize men, protect women, and raise children. -- William Bennett)
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To: betty boop; unspun; Alamo-Girl; marron; logos; xzins
IMHO that is the very idea that America must never get over. For it is her birthright, her inheritance, her foundation in truth

Hmmm...it seems to me that was the exact same attitude of the Israelites. The false sense of birthright is what sent the Isrealites into captivity. Instead what God demands is obedience. God will not protect this nation because a majority of Americans are Cinos. True religon is what God demands. I encourage you to review the narratives of the Old Testament. Again and again the Israelites fell captive to the false religons of its neighbors and it was this idolatery that sent them into captivity. America's inheritance is traced directly through the Dutch and English revolutions and the Reformation in general. These revolutions were firstly religous in nature and the emphasis was on the reformation of the Church. The historical evidence of this is irrefutable. Before the culture can be reformed first the Church must be reformed. Cultural reformation always follows Church reformation.

But here's the problem: Christians are called to love, to live in love -- not hate. So now I gather we Christians have to delve into the meaning -- assuming there is one -- of that trite expression, "tough love."

C'mon now Betty. This "love" that you describe seems to float in the air without meaning or substance. What is this ethereal, ubiquitous, hippie-like, universalist love? Let me pose some qualifiers to this love that I think will provide some meaning. First, what is the object of our love. If the object of our love is, as Scripture demands, the love of God what does that entail? I would suggest, and Scripture would demand, that love of God is obedience to his Word. Love for fellow man is meaningless unless attached to the love of God and his Word. If we make the love of man equal to the love of God we have essentially made an idol of humanity. It must be asked, whom first do we serve, God or man? It has nothing to do with "tough love" but rather in whom is your love placed. If placed correctly then the obedience to God is the light that attracts men. Love toward man is the natural outflow of this love of God. But if we follow a false god any love towards man is a false love.

The second aspect of this love is the quality of this love. This love must be always geared toward Truth. Again, a love for a false "truth" is a false love. Those who worship God will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Speaking truth and leading those outside of the truth toward the truth is true love. Affirming a false "truth" to those outside of the truth is the worst kind of hatred leading to damnation.

Betty, I think you have a wonderful spirit and God has given you many great gifts. But unless we in the Church put away our "Baals" and begin to worship the true God any efforts toward cultural reformation is fruitless. Our inheritance? I'll leave you with the words of the Reverend John Witherspoon in a sermon on the eve of the American Revolution:

Suffer me to beseech you, or rather to give you warning, not to rest satisfied with a form of godliness, denying the power thereof. There can be no true religion, till there be a discovery of your lost state by nature and practice, and an unfeigned acceptance of Christ Jesus, as he is offered in the gospel. Unhappy are they who either despise his mercy, or are ashamed of his cross. Believe it, "There is no salvation in any other." "There is no other name under heaven given amongst men by which we must be saved." Unless you are united to him by a lively faith, not the resentment of a haughty monarch, the sword of divine justice hangs over you, and the fullness of divine vengeance shall speedily overtake you. I do not speak this only to the heaven-daring profligate or grovelling sensualist, but to every insensible, secure sinner; to all those, however decent and orderly in their civildeportment, who live to themselves, and have their part and portion in this life; in fine, to all who are yet in a state of nature, for "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". The fear of man may make you hide your profanity; prudence and experience may make you abhor intemperance and riot; as you advance in life one vice may supplant another and hold its place; but nothing less than the sovereign grace of God can produce a saving change of heart and temper, or fit you for his immediate presence.

While we give praise to God, the supreme Disposer of all events, for his interposition in our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of an arm of flesh. I could earnestly wish, that while our arms are crowned with success, we might content ourselves with a modest ascription of it to the power of the Highest. It has given me great uneasiness to read some ostentatious, vaunting expressions in our newspapers, though happily, I think, much restrained of late. Let us not return to them again. If I am not mistaken, not only the Holy Scriptures in general, and the truths of the glorious gospel in particular, but the whole course of providence, seem intended to abase the pride of man, and lay the vain-glorious in the dust.

From what has been said you may learn what encouragement you have to put your trust in God, and hope for his assistance in the present important conflict. He is the Lord of hosts, great in might, and strong in battle. Whoever hath his countenance and approbation, shall have the best at last. I do not mean to speak prophetically, but agreeably to the analogy of faith, and the principles of God's moral government. I leave this as a matter rather of conjecture than certainty, but observe, that if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

If your cause is just, you may look with confidence to the Lord, and intreat him to plead it as his own. You are all my witnesses, that this is the first time of my introducing any political subject into the pulpit. At this season, however, it is not only lawful but necessary, and I willingly embrace the opportunity of declaring my opinion without any hesitation, that the cause in which America is now in arms, is the cause of justice, of liberty, and of human nature. So far as we have hitherto proceeded, I am satisfied that the confederacy of the colonies has not been the effect of pride, resentment, or sedition, but of a deep and general conviction that our civil and religious liberties, and consequently in a great measure the temporal and eternal happiness of us and our posterity, depended on the issue. The knowledge of God and his truths have from the beginning of the world been chiefly, if not entirely confined to those parts of the earth where some degree of liberty and political justice were to be seen, and great were the difficulties with which they had to struggle, from the imperfection of human society, and the unjust decisions of unsurped authority. There is not a single instance in history, in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage.

32 posted on 03/05/2004 1:41:17 AM PST by lockeliberty (God is not served by human hands as if he had need of us.)
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To: betty boop; unspun; lockeliberty
Thank you so much for the ping to your discussion! I may be a little too tired to make much sense, but I'd like to underline two statements made by betty boop:

For it is her [America’s] birthright, her inheritance, her foundation in truth -- and the only way she can survive in a world that involves implacable enemies determined to hate and to kill Americans...

But I think of it this way: May God's Will be done, here on earth as it is in heaven.

Indeed, I instinctively believe that America is in mortal peril the day Christians here decide to quit trying to defend the Christian principles of its inception. And thus we ought to be earnestly politically active and vote.

But more importantly, God's will must come first, always! Therefore, if we are defeated – if His will is that Christ shall come again now - that the end times stage must be set and America must become nothing - we Christians must not resist it, but rather embrace His will, remembering this lesson:

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. – Matthew 16:21-23

In sum, my opinion is that we should continue to defend the Christian principles of our founders with all our ability but rejoice if we should fail, anticipating Christ's return.

54 posted on 03/05/2004 9:31:09 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Enjoyed your post.
55 posted on 03/05/2004 9:39:03 PM PST by avenir (...thinking...)
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