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Excellent points. However, in the interests of splitting hairs, when I make reference to "haves and have nots", it does not necessarily mean that I am referring to material goods. In that sense, poor choice of words on my part.

But, we have to consider just what it is that makes "haves" in the first place. Westerners do not shun religion (obviously) and do not divide the world into secular and religious portions consciously in their everyday lives. What thay have done throughout history is to recognize when to leave their dogma behind. Islam has not figured out how to do that.

Free from the restarints of religious dogma (but not religion), westerners have pursued the scientific method of research and discovery which has led to the modern world we know today. The first step was to question authority, successfully. Newton could both believe in God and measure and describe the theory of gravity, in effect, look into the mind of God. In his view, God was not an unfathomable being whose ways could never be known by man, but his belief was that man was SUPPOSED to look into the mind of God, as a challenge to mankind, not to God himself. This is a very Western belief, handed down to us from the Greeks.

I don't believe Muslims have no faith, I just believe that their faith is misguided because no one throughout Islamic history has dared to check his dogma at the door. Until someone does, Islam will remain a backwards ideology, dependant and distrustful of the very West that has ensured it's survival.

I thank both of you for your example of good debate/discussion. :o)

I wonder....

Islam was once one of the greatest civilizations of the world, centuries ago. Did they check their dogma at the door then, or is there something else to the equation?