Highly Qualified Teachers Need Not Apply -- Bush is trying to weaken teacher credentialing

The New Jersey Teachers Union ^ | President of the NJ Teachers Union

[Amelia]

How many really good teachers did you have during your K-12 years?

I may have had more than most people; my mother was a teacher and she tried to make sure we had the good teachers, but she couldn't "protect" us from all of them. I do remember some who were exceptionally bad, like the one who was fired mid-year for coming in drunk. This was in the 1960s, by the way.

I think the good-to-bad teacher ratio has remained fairly constant over the years in the public schools, and for the most part we have to take the good with the bad.

I think perhaps women's lib has depleted the pool of good teachers to an extent - there are so many other things for a college-educated woman to do now - but lots of people who could do other things but love teaching are still in the profession.

[SoftballMominVA]

My limited experience, in just one year spent teaching, suggests that one reason many kids are failing is that their parents don't give a damn. Only a parent who gives a damn is going to jump through voucher hoops.

It really does begin all at home. Most children need up to one thousand hours of exposure to text before reading is going to happen. Some kids do okay with less; some will actually need much more.

If a parent reads to a child an average of 30 minutes a day for 6 years (30 x 365= 10950 x 6 == 65700 / 60 == 1095 hours) this exposure is in the bag. A child comes to school knowing that the English language goes left to right, up to down. Those little "things" are symbols and those symbols make words that make meaning. Maybe the child knows a few letter and sounds--bonus.

Now compare this child to one of a welfare mother who does not read to the child--ever. This is a child that comes into school not quite sure of how to hold a book and absolutely NO clue that words are even out there. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the second child is in a world of hurt FROM DAY ONE. Which child has the best chance of success? How can even a great teacher provide in 7 hours of school the necessary hours of exposure to text to make up for the home?

Hey, I've got an idea! Let's abolish ALL public schools!! These welfare parents have done such a marvelous job with the first 6 years, those kids will be just fine in the long run! Yeah, that's the ticket! Let's all watch the country descend into anarchy and illiteracy! Go USA! **sarcasm off**

Seriously, it does all start at home. A wonderful saint of a teacher can do quite a bit, but if the teacher is a hair short of 100%, the child will not progress, especially in comparison with children with dedicated parents.

But when the public school teacher fails that child, at least it gives folks here someone else to bash.

[Criminal Number 18F]

How can even a great teacher provide in 7 hours of school the necessary hours of exposure to text to make up for the home?

Hit that one out of the park, Mom. In my case we had kids in the high school for about 6 hours of instruction, plus any extracurricular activities or sports (guess what, the kids whose parents didn't care were not in sports or clubs, either]. The other 18 hours a day the kids had their families, and by high-school age, their peer groups as role models.

Many people expect schools to teach the kids character and citizenship lessons that are in direct conflict with the negative and nihilistic lessons that come from parents, peers and popular entertainment.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[SevenDaysInMay]

Government schools have become septic, destroying childhood, rewarding ignorance.

[Amelia]

Hey, I've got an idea! Let's abolish ALL public schools!! These welfare parents have done such a marvelous job with the first 6 years, those kids will be just fine in the long run! Yeah, that's the ticket! Let's all watch the country descend into anarchy and illiteracy! Go USA! **sarcasm off**

Best post I've seen all week!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people on FR think that most of the rest of the country really is just like them....I have 16 year old retarded students who are having children of their own. I keep wondering who would "homeschool" those babies if public schools were ever abolished.

Public schools may not be perfect -- generally they are a very good reflection of their community -- but they are the only chance at a "normal life" some of these children have. Some children aren't even being socialized, much less educated, at home.

[Amelia]

Government schools have become septic, destroying childhood, rewarding ignorance.

Do you think that's the fault of the teachers, the parents, or the culture in general?

[Coleus]

Not good for the kids if that experiment is a failure, so it's nice to have something that might predict success....)>>

And you think a piece of paper issued by the "state" is valuable enough? And what the heck do you think has been going on in public schools these past 50 yrs? Experiments on Children with new math, whole word recognition, socialization, condom use, sexual health clinics, goals 2000, Outcome based education.

And state licensing predicts success? Not in my book. The more govt. becomes involved in any program the worse off it becomes.

Yes, I trust nuns who have been teaching for 60 years and more, and the schools in which they teach. I most certainly do. I trust home schooling by parents. I trust school choice and the choice of the mother to send her children to a school in which she chooses. I trust most charter schools. And I DON'T trust public education as it is today.

[Coleus]

Bush added $15 billion to the budget for education, for the first time in 50 yrs. after $375 billion spent, the US Govt. is finally requiring "ACCOUNTABILITY" and the teachers are beside themselves, they just don't know what to do since they were never required to do so.

[summer]

I am for accountability. But, I have decided I am not for teaching in a failing inner city school with a 4th grade class where 90%+ of the kids are reading on a 1st grade level -- and are now in my class thanks to "social promotion."

And, my job is to teach them how to read on a 4th grade level in less than 6 months and prove it on a test. Oh, do it all for under $25,000 a year, pay for all supplies myself and expect no help from parents.

If you want that job, feel free to take it.

[Amelia]

And you think a piece of paper issued by the "state" is valuable enough?

That's not what I said. I asked you, if you were in charge of schools, what criteria you would use to determine whether or not teachers were qualified.

What qualities do good teachers have, and how could you tell if an applicant possessed those qualities?

Yes, I trust nuns who have been teaching for 60 years and more, and the schools in which they teach.

I don't believe there are many 80 year old nuns still teaching, although I could be wrong.

I trust home schooling by parents.

Depends on the parents. Most of the home-schooled kids I know are bright, polite, and working well above the level they would be in public schools. I've seen a few who called themselves "homeschooled" because the students wouldn't go to school and weren't old enough to drop out but the parents had little or no control over the students and very little learning was involved.

If homeschools were the only option, what would happen to the children of my 16-year-old mentally retarded students?

I trust school choice and the choice of the mother to send her children to a school in which she chooses.

That sounds nice in theory, and I suppose it works well in urban areas. Where I live there aren't that many different schools within a reasonable driving distance, and a parent would have to be able to transport a child to a different school even if they could choose it.

I trust most charter schools. And I DON'T trust public education as it is today.

Most charter schools are public schools which have a lot of parental involvement. Parental involvement in general is the key to student achievement, assuming the parents really want the child to succeed and aren't simply trying to ensure that the child can do whatever he or she wants to do with no consequences - there are some of those parents.

But, back to the key question: if YOU were in charge, what would YOU do differently?

[Coleus]

Fire the thousands of lousy teachers, require teachers to get real degrees in subject areas (as they do in Prep, boarding and Catholic schools), instead of the so-called education degrees, enact voucher programs to spur competition and give parents a choice, teach phonics in school and the rote method of arithmetic, diagramming of sentences, etc. Get rid of tenure. Abolish social studies and go back to the pre John Dewey era where civics, geography and history are taught, allow prayer in school and the teaching of morals and values, end condom distributions and sexual health clinics, go back to the old methods of teaching human sexuality, etc. Get the Federal Govt. out of the education business and limit the state's role.

what would you do?

[summer]

And, that is truly the KEY question...

[summer]

require teachers to get real degrees in subject areas (as they do in Prep, boarding and Catholic schools),

ROTFLMAO....no teacher is required to have any such degree now in FL private schools not accepting vouchers.

Some private schools might require a degree, but under current FL law, no private school is required to do so (unless they are taking vouchers).

I think teachers should get together and write a book called THE MYTH OF EVERY PRIVATE SCHOOL BEING GREAT. For while it is no doubt true some are great, so too are some public schools. But this ridiculous attitude that EVERYTHING about EVERY private school is GREAT is just silly -- and very much off the mark.

[summer]

BTW, right now, under FL law, you could be a principal of a FL public school. Gov Bush has abolished all requirements for principals, in an effort to bring in more out of the box thinkers. So, get a job as a FL public school principal and start changing education now! :)

[summer]

(Unless of course, you are holding out for that great teaching job elsewhere -- the one I described in my post #9. It's out there somewhere, if you really want it.)

[Amelia]

the US Govt. is finally requiring "ACCOUNTABILITY" and the teachers are beside themselves, they just don't know what to do since they were never required to do so.

I think accountability is a great thing. I don't think it's being implemented quickly enough; some of the students already in the system will continue to pass even though they don't have the skills to do so, because NCLB as I understand it is starting at lower levels and working up.

Do you think it's fun to try to teach high school level material to students who are reading and doing math at less than a 4th grade level? Do you think the students enjoy it?

I'm not certain how NCLB is all being implemented in a fair way. For instance, if I had to show that all or most of my students had achieved a certain level in my science class by the end of the year, I'm not sure I could do so. They are in high school, and some are just reading at a first or second grade level, so they aren't really capable of doing the work.

I can teach science, but I don't have time to do that and teach them to read.

[Coleus]

It's a good idea, you need more managers and less teachers as principals. They do it in business all the time.

[Coleus]

They are in high school, and some are just reading at a first or second grade level, so they aren't really capable of doing the work. >>>

One example why the present system is not working and why special ed students should be in a vocational setting and in work study by high school. You can only teach someone so much according to their IQ level and disability and what they are doing now is just taking up space.

[SoftballMominVA]

that's why special ed students should be in a vocational setting and in work study by high school.

Yeah, tracking, that worked sooooo well in the 60's and 70's. Ya know why tracking was ended? Because people GAVE UP on kids way too soon. The fact is, no one knows what causes some of these disabilities. Since we don't know, we can't commit them to a track that denies them their basic human rights. So, just to put all the cards on the table, would you send my special ed students back to the boiler room too?

The fact is, I'll just bet if you had a child with a sub-normal IQ you would fight tooth and nail to get every single service out there for your kid. You would do that because you are a caring, loving parent. So, do these children deserve LESS because they were unlucky enough to be born to parents who don't give a damn?

Everyone here seems to assume that "hey, I'm fine, everyone else in this country must be too." Not so. For many, many kids school is the only consistent place in their lives. It is the only place someone shows them kindness. Do all of them go out and get great, high-paying jobs? hell, no. We all know that. Are all teachers in all public schools these little bundles of light? Nope.

In my school there are 3 teachers I know of that are months away from retirement and they are just phoning it in now. Want me to share a dirty little secret? This type of person is in every work place in America. Public schools do not have a monopoly on lazy, good for nothing workers. It's like that everywhere. "Oh, but you have tenure and can't be fired." Who says? There is a HORRIBLE teacher in my school that was just fired, even though she was tenured. She was lazy and good for nothing and she got caught. So what. There are people in my husband's office who are so lazy, it takes 2 employees to do their work. Do they get fired? Nope, cause the boss loves them. So, now, do I get to rant and rave about the sad, sad situation of the corporate world?

Face it, some schools are horrible, some schools are okay, some schools are great. But it's unfair to tar all with the same brush because it suits your personal agenda of the day. And hell, it's easy to sit back and throw stones rather than try to make a difference.

[SoftballMominVA]

I think teachers should get together and write a book called THE MYTH OF EVERY PRIVATE SCHOOL BEING GREAT

Want to hear a good one? There is a private school in our area where the kids pay 12k to attend. However, their test scores (Stanford, ITBS, SAT) are only mediocre. So they are currently offering FREE FOUR YEAR scholarships based totally on merit. So my 8th grader applied just to see. She is a public school student with very high scores on ITBS, Stanford, COGAT, what have you. Three years advanced in math, Gifted across the board, 1st chair All District French horn. They fell over themselves when I handed them her portfolio. She was offered a scholarship in less than 2 weeks.

So what did my child do? She turned it down to go to the public school. This school only offered 6 AP courses, no orchestra, and no softball. She spent one day there with a current student looking over the school and getting a feel for it. If I had made her go, she would have been devastated. She said all these kids were interested in were what kind of car her parents drove, what brand purse did she have, where was her favorite place to ski, did she prefer shopping in NY or Paris? Blah. She said she would be bored and not challenged.

She'll do fine in the local public school, with real kids, learning real subjects.

And yeah, she will probably be exposed to some things I would rather her not see, but she is a strong conservative Christian young lady with home support. She will be fine.