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I DETEST THIS FILM ..WITH A PASSION [Christopher Hitchens on the Passion of the Christ]
The Mirror ^
| February 27, 2004
| Christopher Hitchens
Posted on 02/27/2004 3:40:31 AM PST by ejdrapes
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To: jonno
Those are all good points, but doesn't that totally preclude the possibility of free will?
301
posted on
02/27/2004 7:17:21 AM PST
by
Future Snake Eater
("Oh boy, I can't wait to eat that monkey!"--Abe Simpson)
To: Cronos
I asked you that question because I wanted to know on what basis you say that the Jewish roots were purged. On the basis of history.
They were NOT.
You and I will have to disagree about this.
How did the Jewish people become the enemy of God?
Your answer: Xenophobia...
My answer: It's a little more involved and complicated than that... but if you believe it is nothing more than Xenophobia...then more power to you.
302
posted on
02/27/2004 7:18:37 AM PST
by
carton253
(I have no genius at seeming.)
To: carton253
The inquisition was started during the Spanish fight against the MuslimMoors. The Spanish were persecuted by the Moors and wanted to remove all trace of these invders, so they went overboard -- it happens when excessive cruelty has been perpetrated to a group of people.
The Church during the middle ages purged itself of pagans and witches who still abounded in the year 800 (the Norse were just in the process of being Christianised as were the GErmanics)
303
posted on
02/27/2004 7:19:38 AM PST
by
Cronos
(W2K4!)
To: ThatsAllFolks2
I like Coetzee, too. Not sure about his politics but I love his style. My favorite modern writer is William Maxwell. I like Eco, too (again, very bad politics, but what a knowledge powerhouse). I don't like Updike at all, I think he strains the English language, but I won't deny he is good. I absolutely abhor Joyce Carol Oates (I know, as a woman I'm supposed to love her - but I never get her, maybe it's just me). Modern poets, Frost, Dunbar, sometimes Billy Collins (our poet Laureate), but not often. I absolute can't stand Maya Angelou - her poetry is like a child's. Rita Dove is much better. Some of my favorites political writers are on-line, James Lileks, A.M. Siriano, Andrew Sullivan, Bryan Preston (what a resource!), and many others. Lileks is always a great read - great style. Sometimes I like Andrew Sullivan but his pro-gay stuff gets to be too much. Siriano I think is the most promising poet and all purpose writer I have read in years, truly a deep thinker, very colorful and often hilarious. I could go on and on (my favorite subject!).
To: Qwinn
What really bothers me, though, is putting myself in the shoes of a Christian, and watching people say things like "You have to denounce anti-Semitism because there's been so much of it from Christians in the past".
And the OT is a history of the Jews winning and losing wars
So called promised land actually was inhabited by other people and the Jews took it from them
305
posted on
02/27/2004 7:22:33 AM PST
by
uncbob
To: carton253
WEll, if you can't back up your off-hand statements....
306
posted on
02/27/2004 7:23:09 AM PST
by
Cronos
(W2K4!)
To: ejdrapes; All
While I can appreciate Hitchens's secular prose when it comes to the minutiae of politics, I REALLY have my doubts of the veracity of his atheistic opinions when it comes to matters of Religion.
307
posted on
02/27/2004 7:23:36 AM PST
by
DoctorMichael
(Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.)
To: ejdrapes
He is an Atheist, par for the course.
To: DoctorMichael
"While I can appreciate Hitchens's secular prose when it comes to the minutiae of politics, I REALLY have my doubts of the veracity of his atheistic opinions when it comes to matters of Religion."
I think the same about O'Reilly's opinions on religion.
To: DoctorMichael
Some of us don't appreciate it very much in either religion or politics.
To: ejdrapes
Hey Chris. Let God forgive you..I won't. BTW: EAT ME you sorry sack of journalistic pablum.
[Go ahead Indie, tell 'em how you really feel!]
311
posted on
02/27/2004 7:25:26 AM PST
by
Indie
(The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.")
To: Austin Willard Wright
"...Some of us don't appreciate it very much in either religion or politics..." Touche!
LOL
312
posted on
02/27/2004 7:25:57 AM PST
by
DoctorMichael
(Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.)
To: Cronos
You and I are just going to have disagree....
313
posted on
02/27/2004 7:28:56 AM PST
by
carton253
(I have no genius at seeming.)
To: Sam Cree
I'd say they're guilty of murder, sure. Let's forget for a moment that Jesus was, in fact, God-incarnate. Let's say He was a radical spokesman for a new kind of religious thought. His teachings didn't call for the utter abolishment of Judaism (as others have correctly pointed out, He Himself was a Jew), nor did He call for the uprising against and overthrow of the Roman Empire.
He merely said that God loves us more than we can imagine, and that we should love him like that in turn. There's no grand earthly penalty for not loving Him, it's totally up to you if you do so.
Now is any of that worth the utter hell they put him through? Sure, it was Romans who passed his final sentence and it was Romans who drove the nails into his hands and feet, but they probably wouldn't have lifted a finger if some of the Jewish leadership hadn't wanted him dead.
Now let's say that He is the Son of God (which Christians including myself believe). Then what does that change? He obviously allowed them to do it. He even points this out to those judging Him. The Jewish leaders could still have chosen to recognize His miracles and His teachings for what they were--i.e. miraculous signs and lessons from God Himself. They did not, however. They were too obsessed with their power. Thankfully, God is much smarter than any human and the whole ordeal had a purpose. Going by the dictionary definition, yeah, I'd say they committed deicide.
In my book, that's all tantamount to murder. However, my views on speaking your mind stem from my rearing in America and exposure since birth to the 1st Amendment, something that obviously did not exist then.
But this notion of "anti-Semitism" when recognizing historical fact is just insane. That's like saying slavery never occurred in America because no one alive today has ever owned slaves or been a slave. It did happen, it was terrible, but we move on with life and learn from our mistakes.
314
posted on
02/27/2004 7:29:30 AM PST
by
Future Snake Eater
("Oh boy, I can't wait to eat that monkey!"--Abe Simpson)
To: Cronos
Why did I know that you were going to say that...
Typical and predictable...
If only I didn't have anything better to do than school you in a history that you can learn from any Church History book... LOL!
But, do have a nice day.
BTW, have you seen The Passion yet?
315
posted on
02/27/2004 7:31:17 AM PST
by
carton253
(I have no genius at seeming.)
To: ejdrapes
I saw the movie last night with 4 relatives, two of whom are not Christian. We were all very moved; you can be moved by Gibson's vision and exact depiction of his faith even if you are not Christian. It is powerful.
As a Democrat leaning Independent, I am again stunned by the Democratic Party almost seeming to take a party position on this movie. Insane. If you're against this movie, if you believe this movie should not have been made and people shouldn't see it, then you believe people shouldn't be allowed to be Christians. Its really that simple.
To: samtheman
See the movie. This is all very clear in the movie. Jesus knows what will happen and always knew it and Mary knew it. The Jews are instruments of God's will, as is Pontius Pilate, as are the Romans who do the actual scourging of Jesus.
To: samtheman
Comparing present day Muslims and the crucifixion of Jesus in the first century is just comparing apples and oranges. Its a ridiculous comparison you're making.
The movie is not "just a movie." It is a depiction of Christian belief.
To: Huck
Hitchens point was spot on and you got it right. Those subtitles will be there in all the other countries, particularly in those societies that just want verification for their anti-Semitism and Jew hating.
319
posted on
02/27/2004 7:44:52 AM PST
by
Naomi4
To: Qwinn
"I am quite well aware that Christianity's track record in respecting human rights is downright spectacular compared to what arises in atheistic systems (such as Communism)." You cannot legitimately claim to be an agnostic and speak of "human rights" in the same breath.
In other words, the rights granted to you by other men cannot be rights that are granted to you merely because you're a "human".
Holding opposite beliefs simultaneously results in the mental confusion called 'cognitive dissonance'.
Want to try again --- leaving out the cognitive dissonance?
You do realize that you didn't answer my last question, don't you?
320
posted on
02/27/2004 7:45:25 AM PST
by
Matchett-PI
(Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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