NRA Director Sen. Larry Craig's Ammunition Ban Amendment

KeepAndBearArms.com ^ | February 26, 2004 | Angel Shamaya

[TERMINATTOR]

While National Rifle Association officials have been denying that they've been orchestrating a sellout in the U.S. Senate, Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) -- an NRA Director -- has been working on an ammunition ban. On the Senate floor today, he introduced, discussed, defended and tried to justify the "Craig/Frist" amendment. This amendment, said Craig, is needed "to strengthen current armor piercing ammunition law." NRA's point-man in the U.S. Senate says that this is "what the law enforcement community needs."

"We don't want to wipe out the hunting and sporting ammunition," said Craig. The "sporting purpose" test was used before -- as justification for firearm rights infringements via the 1938 Nazi Weapons Law and later copied nearly verbatim in the U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968.

"Let's send a message that armor piercing ammunition is flat off limits," said Sen. Craig.

The NRA Director went on to support strong enforcement of his proposed ammunition ban, using phrases like "prison for life."

The Second Amendment does not enumerate the right of the people to keep and bear "sporting" arms. Banning any arms, or their ammunition, is clearly off limits to Congress. A longtime Director of the National Rifle Association ought to know that. Instead, he's supporting an ammo ban -- based on the infamous Nazi "sporting purpose" text -- on the floor of the U.S. Senate.

Some might suggest that it doesn't matter what gets said on the Senate floor -- that what matters is what gets signed into law. People who believe that ought to consider the dangers here. Once a "pro gun" congressman publicly expresses support for gun control -- ammunition control is indeed gun control -- he empowers the enemy and emboldens future attempts to whittle away our rights.

The truth about civilian possession of "armor piercing ammunition" is immutable, immovable, unchanging. If government employees can deploy AP ammo against the people, denying that same ammunition to the people is directly contradictory to the meaning, purpose and intent of the Second Amendment: a balance of power.

The excuse for banning AP ammo -- "to protect law enforcement employees" -- is a dangerous road to travel. It's the same justification used to ban magazines that hold more than ten rounds. It's the same reason given to deny The People free access to machineguns. It was the same foundation upon which the Clinton/Feinstein semi-auto rifle ban was built and signed into law.

When does that excuse stop working? When the legal magazine capacity is reduced to five rounds? When all semi-auto rifles are banned? When owning a bullet-resistant vest means life imprisonment -- unless the government signs your paycheck? When all handguns are banned?

If you use "protecting law enforcement" as justification to restrict the right of the people to keep and bear arms -- if you accept that unacceptable excuse for chipping away at the Second Amendment -- then lay down your arms and go tend your garden, catch up on your reading and forget about restoring the Second Amendment. There's no end to that excuse other than total disarmament -- because even a mere single shot .22 caliber rifle manufactured before World War One can be used to injure a law enforcement officer.

Bear in mind that Sen. Craig's ammo ban amendment is being offered today, by him -- to his own bill. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (S1805) is written to protect gun manufacturers from the frivolous lawsuits being waged by those whose ultimate goal is to ban all firearms. The bill is being used as a rider for many other gun controls today and leading up to the final vote on Tuesday. Sen. Craig wants to amend his own bill -- with an ammunition ban -- under the guise of abiding his oath of office. He said so on C-SPAN, in plain English.

We've requested text of the Amendment (SA2625) from Senator Craig's office and through another Senator's office, as well. As soon as we have it, we will publish it.

[ahadams2]

yes indeed I was kidding!:-) The point was that the 'keep and bear arms' website is run by someone who is absolutely paranoid about the NRA. Back when I used to go there it became obvious that the individual running that site had no grasp of politics or how the government works, and instead thought everything should happen *his* way - sort of a libertarian George Souros only without Souros' money. It's the sort of hysterical nonsense of his, as exhibitted by the article that started this thread, that convinced me that site simply wasn't worth bothering with.

[Paleo Conservative]

BREAKING NEWS!

Smith & Wesson chief quits over crime

CNN/Money ^ | 2/27/04 | CNN/Money
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - James Joseph Minder, chairman of handgun maker Smith & Wesson Holding Corp., resigned after a published report revealed he'd spent as much as 15 years in prison decades ago for armed robberies and a bank heist.

The Republican, a daily newspaper in Springfield, Mass., reported Thursday that Minder confirmed his resignation without realizing that the company had not made an official announcement.

Smith & Wesson, the nation's second-largest gun manufacturer, told CNN/Money that it plans to release a statement later Friday but did not wish to comment on the newspaper report or confirm Minder's resignation at this time.

Minder was named chairman of Smith & Wesson (SWB: up $0.06 to $1.60, Research, Estimates) just last month amid a board shake-up.

His convictions were unknown to Smith & Wesson until the Arizona Republic newspaper chronicled Minder's criminal past earlier this month.

Minder, now in his 70s, had spent time in prison in the 1950s and 1960s for a string of armed robberies and an attempted prison escape, the Arizona Republic reported. During that time, the Detroit News said he was known for carrying a 16-gauge, sawed-off shotgun.

[tpaine]

Nobody needs armor piercing rounds for hunting.

On the other hand, the second amendment is not about the rights of hunters and target shooters.
Paleo Conservative


______________________________________


Two bits the real purpose is to ban all sales of surplus military ammo..

#12 -revised-


Happy now?

[Oberon]

I never meant to dispute you, truly. I just used your quote as my cue to make the point I wanted to make. Thanks, by the way.

[jammer]

Understand.

[kt56]

For what it's worth, I got this NRA-ILA update today

Recent internet alerts from some "pro-Second Amendment" groups have suggested that the National Rifle Association has either accepted a compromise that would include reenactment of the 1994 Clinton Gun ban and/or the McCain-Reed gun show restrictions, or will not actively fight against their passage in the Senate. Not only are these claims completely false and ridiculous but they are also extremely counterproductive to our legislative strategy and agenda. Gun control groups are spreading the same rumors in hopes of confusing pro-gun senators as to our position in hopes of gaining their support.

The National Rifle Association led the fight in opposition to this ill-conceived ban in 1994, led the efforts to repeal the ban two years later, and is leading the fight to ensure the Clinton gun ban expires on time on September 13. From public speeches, articles in NRA publications, communications to lawmakers and the development of a website (www.ClintonGunBan.com), the National Rifle Association has been vocal and unambiguous about our position on this issue.

It is our hope that supposed "friends of the Second Amendment" will cease to provide ammunition to the enemy by disseminating this false information. Unfortunately, some of these groups seem intent on finding or creating any excuse to defeat S. 1805, perhaps because its passage has been a priority of the NRA for four years. The anti-gunners are seeking to undermine the Second Amendment and the legislative process by seeking to bankrupt firearms and ammunition manufacturers or get gun control restrictions through the courts through dozens of pending municipal lawsuits -- blaming the gun industry for the acts of criminals -- initiated by anti-gun big city mayors and greedy trial lawyers. A single judgment by a rogue judge or jury could wipe out the entire firearms industry making our gun rights worthless. Passage of S. 1805 is critical -- but not worth allowing legislation going to the President including either an extension of the Clinton gun ban or restrictions at gun shows. There will be no compromise. The only choice is a "clean" bill or no bill.

The legislative process in Congress is complex and far from perfect. Fortunately, Congress is a bicameral (two house) legislative body and both the House and Senate must agree on the same bill before enactment. While we are uncertain of the outcome of several pending anti-gun amendments in the Senate, the House is strongly pro-gun and it (or a conference committee) will not accept any anti-gun Senate-passed amendment as part of the final product to be sent to the President.

Pro-gun grassroots activists who want to advance our cause should not be distracted by misinformation and disinformation by our "friends." Instead, gun owners and sportsmen must keep our focus on the real action and contact -- by calls, e-mails, and faxes -- their two U.S. Senators urging them to vote for S. 1805 and against any and all anti-gun "poison pill" killer amendments including, but not limited to, the Clinton gun ban and gun shows. Use the "Write Your Representatives" (www.capwiz.com/nra/home) tool at www.NRAILA.org to contact your Senators and call them at 202-224-3121. We appreciate your active support in our cause to defend the Second Amendment and freedom itself.

National Rifle Association

[looscnnn]

"Smith & Wesson chief quits over crime"

Peachy.

[Double Tap]

Folks, if we are going to have a discussion on this, lets get our facts straight.

Black Talons are not banned, period. Winchester pulled them from the commercial market, renamed them "Ranger SXT's" and only sells to the LEO market. You can find them at gun shows all the time, and they are perfectly legal to own.

As to the amendment in question, IMO it sure looks like a stinker to me.

[Double Tap]

It is amazing how folks just ran with the first statement.

Whole lot of jumping going on lately.

[NRA2BFree]

Recent internet alerts from some "pro-Second Amendment" groups have suggested that the National Rifle Association has either accepted a compromise that would include reenactment of the 1994 Clinton Gun ban and/or the McCain-Reed gun show restrictions, or will not actively fight against their passage in the Senate.

Yeah, well that's just great; however, I notice they completely ignored what Craig has done. As a director for the NRA they should know what he's doing and sure as heck should keep him from introducing crap legislation like he did! What part of "NO COMPROMISE" don't they understand?

[looscnnn]

I have a box of 180 grain 30-.06 at home right now. They are now called Supreme FailSafe now, and can be bought for reloading for rifles. I was not saying that they were banned, I know they are not. I was just pointing out that they, along with the Silvertips and Nosler Ballistic Tips, are "armor piercing" and not true armor piercing bullets.

[Double Tap]

As is the Remington Corelock, Federal Hi-Shok...

To be plain and honest, just about every centerfire rifle round will penetrate standard police issue vest.

That is what is soooooooooo scary about the proposed "study".

[looscnnn]

"That is what is soooooooooo scary about the proposed "study"."

That is basically what I said when I posted the text of the Craig/Frist amendment over in the C-Span debate thread. As Barney Fife says "We need to nip this in the bud!"

[skip2myloo]

Bump for later and a Ping

[kt56]

Recent internet alerts from some "pro-Second Amendment" groups have suggested that the National Rifle Association has either accepted a compromise that would include reenactment of the 1994 Clinton Gun ban and/or the McCain-Reed gun show restrictions, or will not actively fight against their passage in the Senate.

Yeah, well that's just great; however, I notice they completely ignored what Craig has done. As a director for the NRA they should know what he's doing and sure as heck should keep him from introducing crap legislation like he did! What part of "NO COMPROMISE" don't they understand?

That's one of the more frustrating aspects of this whole mess..We got enough problems dealing with the certified, card carrying gun grabers without having to worry about a 5th column and what's being done about it...

[NRA2BFree]

That's one of the more frustrating aspects of this whole mess..We got enough problems dealing with the certified, card carrying gun grabers without having to worry about a 5th column and what's being done about it.

So true! I can't stand not knowing the end result. It's driving me nuts. lol I want them to get it over so we know what we have to do. Btw, welcome to Free Republic! :)

[archy]

If 30-30 goes, it all goes. Getting close to crunch time, our Lords seem to be getting panicked by all the armed peasants.

You know, I haven't had a good old .30-30 lever gun in almost two decades. I'm never been a real big fan of them, being wondrously adept at mashing my trigger finger on closing the cocking lever with either the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 designs, the most common usually encountered, though there are a couple of other versions around, the Mossberg 472 high on the list.

I may have to go do some shopping and see if I can find one that suits me. If they don't want me to have one, it's time to get one.

Interestingly, it looks as if the new 6,8mm military rimless cartridge shares a casehead dimension with the rimmed .30-30 brass. That suggests some interesting possibilities.

-archy-/-

[El Laton Caliente]

Your not so bad bill just made me a felon because I have some steel cored Russian surplus for my CZ52.

Armor piercing is a military term for ammo that penatrates light armored VEHICALS. Any test or measurement that matches ammo to the threat level three and three plus vests used by LEO's is a crock. The level three vests are designed to stop only non-magnum pistol rounds out of pistol length barrels.

Even the military threat level four and four plus vests will not stop high power rifle rounds and they have ceramic plates in them.

The study can find nothing but that ALL rifle ammo will go through a protective vest. They are just making Kenendy's next try at a ban justified.

[Travis McGee]

I'm not interested in a 3030 lever, but I really want an AR type in 6.8mm! Sounds great to me. Have you read the article on its development in the current SOF mag?

[BCR #226]

Don't know much about the uses of Armor piercing projectiles do you?

First of all, YES, the militia needs them. Why? Do you think your soft point .30-06 hunting rounds can penetrate the skin of a Soviet BMP or a Cadillac-Gauge V series Commando? Some forms of AP can. If our nation faces tyranny from within or without, we will need those kinds of munitions. M113 APC's can withstand your hunting rounds while the M2HB on top drops 600 rounds a minute of .50 BMG AP in on you.

Notice that I'm not even concerned with bullet resistant vests? There is a reason for that. There aren't many vests in the world that will stop a .308 FMJ or worse yet, a .300 WM round. There is no individual vest made that can even come close to stopping a .50 BMG M33 ball round.

Any restrictions on AP ammunition is to weaken our civilian defense against oppression or an invasion that our military alone cannot stop. That is it. It goes hand in hand with the resistance of arming pilots and resistance to a national standard on CCW.

I have nearly 15 years of experience with AP and other "exotic" ammunition. Trust me, the blowhards that propose the legislation banning this stuff have no clue about it or guns in general. Personally, I'd like to see the government work hand in hand with the civilian population on making sure that we the people have the proper arms and ammunition to defend our nation and lives against any tyranny.

Mike