Cleland's Time At The Front

Various | Hon

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

My miltary experience is limited to the six years I spent in the USN. So take this with that in mind.

It was my experience that when it came to equipment design and service members, the designer would try to idiot proof the equiment because when you work towards the lowest common denominator that will be using the equipment, that's pretty far down the intelligence chain.

So when I read that the grenade had an adjustable setting that any infantryman could adjust the BS meter in my head went off. I know we could set timed fuses on our 5 inch rounds and I'm positive that holds true for the Army's artillery but for a grenade to be adjustable sounds wrong.

I could be wrong and if I am it wouldn't be the first time.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

Cleland served and did his duty. Don't attack his service record. If you are in a combat area one minute or one year, you are where any number of things can kill or maim you.


Absolutely true- and these careless acts can also kill or maim others. The Military, following the example of companies which engage in dangerous activities (oil drilling, aviation, heavy construction, etc etc, now have professional Safety Officers and written procedures to try and avoid some of these pointless and stupid accidents. (Yes, I know that the Navy and Air Force took the lead in this many years ago- but I could still find you dozens of really awful accidents in both services, especially concerning ammunition-handling).
GOOGLE up the "Port Chicago Disaster", or the explosion of the "Mount Hood", for example. Or the LEXINGTON, or on and on and on. Equal time for the Air Force? How about the crash of the B-58 that was run into by a chase plane? Ironically, there for enhanced safety...

The Army was (VERY) late to institute formal safety programs- as I said elsewhere , I saw hundreds of accidental deaths, which were generally considered a "cost of doing business".

[ZULU]

Okay. Now can somebody clarify Kerry's service? What exactly did he do to deserve the three pruple hearts and the other medals he received?

[optimistically_conservative]

So when I read that the grenade had an adjustable setting that any infantryman could adjust the BS meter in my head went off.

Not sure where you read that. I can't remember any hand grenade that had an adjustable timer as you describe.

The way it was done, is you "assumed" a 3-5 second minimum delay before it went bang!

I was taught how to cook off a grenade prior to throwing it. Basically, pull the pin, let the spoon release, count, then toss.

Another method I've heard about is to have your buddy pull the pin and release the spoon, toss the grenade to you, then you throw. Never tried that.

[LiteKeeper]

INTREP - ELECTION 2004 - CLELAND

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

What does it take to immunize those of us who do not "buy" the official Democrat Party versions of Kerry's and Cleland's service records?
Is a RVCM enough? Or a VSM? Or do we need to have the MOH to make us "qualified" to have an opinion on this forum?

No, I don't think so- after all, practically NONE of the Democrats who are running down George Bushes NG service have ever worn a uniform (excrept perhaps one supplied by a fast-food outfit).

[Wheee The People]

The facts appear correct and it's never wrong or shameful to compile facts.

Innuendo is not our friend in this case. He served. He served honorably. Why suggest anything else? Find something else to micro examine about him.

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

#1. How do you SET the pin on a grenade for a hair-trigger detonation?

There's a framis on the bottom that allows you to adjust the fuse. See the following links:

Hand grenade information and history and American Grenade Guide

You obviously can’t have instant detonation on a hand grenade as it has a 5 meter kill and a 35 meter wound radius. You learn that sort of thing in basic training.

[Hon]

Look, I am more than happy to change the title of this thread if it is deemed inappropriate. It is apparently true--and nobody has suggested it isn't. But if so many people see it as in some way disrespectful, I am open to a new title.

I am also reporting this via the Abuse Button, so the mods can change it--if they can think of something less inflammatory.

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

It was in the text of the article where the writer attributes Cleland's injuries to picking up a handgrenade after he gets off the helo and it goes off. The story is some "green" enlisted guy set the fuse to a "hair trigger". Whatever that's supposed to mean.

A poster said he heard Cleland blame himself (in person) and that he had hung the grenade from his web gear improperly (read, by the pin) and when he jumped to the ground the grenade came loose leaving the pin dangling from his web gear. Max go boom.

[Hon]

BTW, I would have posted what I did in the last reply sooner, but I was on the phone for the last hour or so with a reporter who was still trying to convince me that I was a GOP shill--because of the Fonda-Kerry story.

I apologize to all who feel offended by this. All I can say is that the information is true. I don't see why people should be offended by the truth. I will try to have it redone so that it doesn't connote anything other than the factual information.

[devane617]

Here is what I said above:
What does any of this matter? As a Republican, and a person with a severe disability that has been in a wheelchair for forty years, I fail to see the benefit in attacking MC. MC has tried to make the best of a very bad situation that most of you could not comprehend, although on the wrong side of the isle. I see no benefit to conservatives to continue this attack.

I see nothing good about the title, or the content. What can possibly be gained by trashing this guy? It makes us look like we are taking cheap shots...

[Dead Dog]

The grenade turned out to belong to an inexperienced soldier who had incorrectly set the pin for a hair-trigger detonation.

Could someone here explain "hair-trigger" in the context of a grenade?

Also, was he the inexperienced solder?

[Hon]

"Innuendo is not our friend in this case. He served. He served honorably. Why suggest anything else?"

Just to help me understand, what innuendo did I post? What did I post that suggested he did not serve honorably? Where did I suggest anything else?

[familyofman]

"I apologize to all who feel offended by this."

Way, way too late for that. Plus your explanation is far too contrite to have any meaning. Crawl back into your rat-hole you slimey coward!!!

[Chapita]

Bravo!!!!!!

[Moose4]

Heroes don't brag. Here's an example--a friend of mine introduced me to an older gentleman he knew, a really nice guy. Since the older guy knew that me and my friend were both World War II aviation freaks, he opened up to us about his service. This guy flew 24 missions as a B-24 bombardier with the Fifteenth Air Force out of somewhere in Italy late in the war, hitting targets in northern Italy, Austria, and southern Germany.

He told us some amazing stuff. About how they literally locked the nose turret gunners in their tiny space and how that gunner could not escape to bail out unless somebody let him out. About the flak they faced over the target. About how they did their bomb runs and how the bombsight worked (most bombardiers didn't even use the bombsight, they dropped on cue from aircraft in front of them). He brought us a bunch of stuff to look at--charts, bomb damage assessment photos, newspaper clippings, pictures, even the factory packer's card for a German fighter pilot's parachute. Amazing.

On his 24th mission, they had a bomb hang up in the bomb bay. He had to take off his parachute due to lack of room, go stand on a six-inch-wide girder 10,000 feet over the Adriatic (remember, no parachute), and start swinging a fire axe at the jammed shackles holding a live, armed 500-pound high explosive bomb in place. He couldn't get it loose. When the B-24 landed back in Italy, it came down hard due to hydraulic damage caused by flak, and ran off the end of the runway...at which point the bomb shook loose and exploded under the airplane, blowing it in two. Miraculously, they only lost one guy crushed in the nose section, but everybody else was hurt.

We went to see a B-17 and B-24 at an airshow and he was showing us around talking about the airplanes, joking with other aircrewmen that he ran into. His own daughter had never heard any of this stuff. She was flabbergasted.

And to look at this guy, he was just another old man. Short, wiry, lively in his 70s, married to the same woman for 50 years, raised a couple of good kids and had a passel of grandkids...a good life. But before that, he had to fly into and out of hell twenty-four times. And he did it, very professionally and matter-of-factly. No bravado. No macho, no posturing. It was just his job.

Nope. Heroes don't need to brag.

}:-)4

[Dead Dog]

Remeber how they ripped Dole's paralysis (the pen), and how Bush Sr. was a coward for leaving his TBM without trying to save his mortally wounded gunner.

Service Record does matter, it tells us how our prospective leaders behaved in the cruciable.

[optimistically_conservative]

The story is some "green" enlisted guy set the fuse to a "hair trigger". Whatever that's supposed to mean.

I took it to mean removing the saftey clip and straightening the safety pin.

I know Cleland has said he thought the grenade came off his gear when he bent down to pick it up. I doubt he rigged his grenades through the pin's loop. In 2000, another soldier took blame.