Army Kills Comanche Helicopter Program

FOX NEWS ^ | Monday, February 23, 2004 | AP

[Rokke]

"Unfortunately, the F-35 doesn't quite have the F-22s high speed intercept capability, although the AMRAAM air-to-air missile makes high speed intercepts almost moot, nowadays."

Yes, and yes.

[CasearianDaoist]

What was the engineering shortfall" speed" weight? fill us in. It looked so good on paper.

[Teacher317]

Do we at least get the A-10 back then???

[michaelt]

The rationale? My short, smart-ass answer: stealth doesn't stop RPGs.

[Phsstpok]

Just received unofficial notice this am. I'm not surprised. The program was ripe for the axe. Cleaning out my desk this week and moving on to other things.

I gather from this post that you've been working on the program? Sorry to hear about the effect on you, then. You up in Connecticut off of I-95? I used to love driving over the bridge near the Sikorsky plant, hoping that they had something interesting out on the flight line.

If, in fact, you have been working on Commanche, can you say whether you think the investment made has been wasted or if some of the things that have been developed and learned in the program will pay off? IOW, is the whole 8 billion down a rat hole, or do we have significant capabilities that we can apply to other programs, particularly things that will keep the "next big thing" from taking 21 frigging years ;^>

And what do you think will happen with the two or three prototypes? They would give some special forces types some interesting capabilities, ala Clancy's Debt of Honor.

[michaelt]

I believe I read in AWAST recently that some A-10s are getting upgraded - new engines, sensors. Contrary to some reports, the Warthog lives.

[SAMWolf]

The UAV pretty much negated the sue for a "reconnaissance only" helicopter. Sometimes it pays to keep working to get a system up and running the M1 Abrams is a case in point.

I seem to remember a Flight Sim out a few years back based on the Comanche.

[CasearianDaoist]

Yes but the f35 does not have the power to support the avionics and radar of the F22 thereby limiting its range. The F22 early production models are great and are exceeding the specs. I don't think that it is the same case as the Comanche. With the EU pushing the Euro fighter and The Russians pushing their export market we are going to go up against birds that outclass the F35 or the F15. This business about it being a "Cold war platform" is just the spin from those usual corners that seek to weaken us. Leader edge fighters will be out there. One of the reasons that it took so long is that the Clinton administration sat on it for so long in the 90s. The problem with the Commache was that they took a simple idea and then expanded it into a sort of rotary fighter plane concept, that and the original specs were rather optimistic for the technology of the time. The F22 if a sound long term investment for the next 40 years or so. The Comanche would be too if it lived up to its hype.

[shadowman99]

"I heard Paul Sr. put up a 415 bench." They show him working out in one episode. I believe he just might be able to do that.

[TADSLOS]

What was the engineering shortfall" speed" weight? fill us in. It looked so good on paper.

Weight was the overriding concern with design engineers. The airframe and it's components were developed against a weight standard with existing powerplants to be able to meet specs for Vertical Rate of Climb (VROC). This was wrong headed in my view, since it meant compromising the survivability of the aircraft and the crew in order to meet lighter weight requirements.

The offset argument was that its stealth characteristics would keep it out of trouble. That may be true when you're up against pure mech/armor formations, but, as we all know, loses its allure, when Haji has you in his sights with an RPG/SA-7/14/18 et al... I'd rather have an airframe with an overabundance of power, ordnance, crew protection, a modernized FLIR, active ASE suite and using high energy tactics.

[Just_de_facts]

You are goring my ox.

[TADSLOS]

I've only been working specific Comanche issues for a year. Mostly dealing with the testing support aspect. It's just part of what I do.

[Just_de_facts]

Suck not from the teat of the dark udder of the underworld. The F-22 is my only defense against the dreaded monster POVERTY.

[Rokke]

"Yes but the f35 does not have the power to support the avionics and radar of the F22 thereby limiting its range."

In this day and age, the shooting platform doesn't need a powerful radar. In fact, it may be the last thing you want. It just turns you into a target. The Eurofighter and Russian exports are nice, but aerial combat is so far beyond the capabilities of the single fighter that no fighter, no matter how capable, will be able to compete with our airpower for the foreseeable future. Even if we never field the F-22 or F-35. Having said that, our F-15's and F-16's are beyond their expected service life. We need a replacement. But the replacement cannot be considered "an Air Force of one".

[TADSLOS]

If, in fact, you have been working on Commanche, can you say whether you think the investment made has been wasted or if some of the things that have been developed and learned in the program will pay off? IOW, is the whole 8 billion down a rat hole, or do we have significant capabilities that we can apply to other programs, particularly things that will keep the "next big thing" from taking 21 frigging years

Good questions. There is some goodness to come out of this program. There are applications in information gathering/sharing and targeting that could and is being applied today to current airframes, so, no, in that regard, it hasn't been a total loss.

[Rokke]

lol. Well, fortunately for you, nobody ever listens to me anyway.

[BulletBobCo]

Now we wait and see what spin Kerry will put on this.

[Destro]

I guess building the bike was part of the promotion.

[Jonah Hex]

It will be interesting watching the fallout on the Stryker and FCS programs since they both incorporated Comanche and associated support into their objective TO&Es.

[AzSteven]

I believe I read in AWAST recently that some A-10s are getting upgraded - new engines, sensors. Contrary to some reports, the Warthog lives.

From what the pilot types here in Tucson have told me, the A-10 has a new SLEP project underway for the past year or so. The 'un-mothballed' about a half-dozen of them at the storage yard at Davis-Monthan and are using them for upgrade testbeds. I think the final decision on which upgrade path to follow is to be made this year, and then the idea is to run them out about one dozen at a time.

Not sure if they will take active-inventory aircraft and upgrade them, or if they will take them out of storage, upgrade and then replace unupgraded active craft as they are completed.

About half (a bit less) of the original A-10 production run is in storage at Davis-Monthan; they pull one out and reactivate it to replace accident and combat losses as needed. I think there are about 200-250 of them in mothballs.