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WHAT MAKES METH SO BAD
Pioneer Press ^ | February 22, 2004 | Amy Becker

Posted on 02/22/2004 4:54:03 AM PST by sarcasm

Paul Stevens couldn't figure out why so many meth addicts he came across had the same piece of busted equipment — a VCR.

The special agent with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension had noticed the pattern for a while. One day in a meth user's home he saw a VCR with a screwdriver jammed into it. He thought the resident might be hiding drugs. That wasn't the case.

Said Stevens: "They're so paranoid, they wonder where those people (on TV) are. They attack the VCRs with screwdrivers, hammers."

Paranoia is just one side effect of methamphetamine, a highly addictive illegal drug increasingly taking hold across Minnesota.

Reported meth activity in the state doubled between 2002 and 2003, by one measure, and related prison sentences jumped to 38 percent of drug offenses in 2002, from 14 percent in 1996. About 75 percent of Minnesota's labs are outstate. In just one county, Pine, officials spent more than $980,000 on meth-related costs in 2003 — one-eighth of the county's net tax levy.

As the drug's popularity grows in the state, so does its far-ranging, devastating effect: jails are packed with inmates who need health care, kids are being permanently removed from their parents, addicts face the challenge of trying to kick a powerfully addicting stimulant and law enforcement agencies struggle for resources to battle the growing number of labs. In addition, meth is reaching new populations, recently prompting concerns among school personnel and American Indian leaders.

"We have not hit our peak with methamphetamine yet in Minnesota," said Brent Lindgren, Mille Lacs County sheriff.

Meth is unique among illegal drugs.

Unlike other narcotics, the powerful man-made stimulant can keep users awake for weeks. It can provoke psychotic violence, unlike marijuana, and is easier to make than cocaine, the only illegal drugs that are more pervasive in the state. Meth — also called speed, crank or ice — is so addicting that jailed users who make bail may be arrested for taking the drug a second time before their first court appearance, sheriffs say.

"When you think you've heard the worst in human nature," Stevens said, "come see a meth head. Methamphetamine just grabs your soul and it doesn't let go."

Addicts are easy to spot.

"(They're) thin, sunken-eyed, sores on their face, teeth rotted out. They scratch all the time, can't stay on topic. They're extremely paranoid," said Kanabec County Sheriff Steve Schulz. "They have a lot of issues, physical and psychological."

The use of methamphetamine, a neurotoxin, is also linked to speeding hearts, pounding blood pressure, damaged blood vessels, skin abscesses and memory loss.

Patrick McVenes, 44, of Mankato, Minn., used the drug to keep awake while running heavy equipment in a steelyard. He became addicted and spent his off hours partying and dealing drugs to feed his habit. He lost his family and landed in prison. He vows to stay clean. "I don't want to die in prison," he says, "and that's what'll happen. I lost a lot already."

The problems posed by methamphetamine's spread in Minnesota are proving hard to solve because of the unique and wide-ranging impact of the drug.

WHAT MAKES METH SO BAD

The uniqueness of meth starts when it is made: Anyone can learn to cook it.

Its ingredients include over-the-counter cold remedies, batteries, brake cleaner and farm fertilizer that are easy to come by — unlike the coca leaves used to make cocaine — and easy to combine, for those who can stomach the stink and the risk of an explosion. Meth cookers use chemical processes in makeshift "labs" that can fit in the trunk of a car.

"If you can make chocolate chip cookies, you can make meth," Schulz said.

Cops and others say more than 90 percent of addicts who quit meth will start using again. Treatment experts dispute that figure and contend that while meth poses unique challenges, recovery is possible.

Withdrawal can last longer than with other drugs, addicts and others say.

Former meth addict and dealer Ralph Larson, currently housed at the Douglas County Jail, took his last hit on July 13, 2000, about 20 minutes before narcotics investigators arrested him. He quit in jail, and he couldn't sleep for two weeks. When he finally slept, he dreamed of meth.

"I'd wake up with the sweats and I could taste the dope in my mouth," he said.

Narcotics investigator Ginger Peterson said meth deals cause her extra anxiety.

"These people are completely dangerous. They're different from any other person I've bought drugs from. Their aggression is above and beyond any other drug. There are more guns, more explosives, more booby traps in meth labs than in crack houses," the Martin County investigator said.

Meth's effects reach beyond users. Proximity to the chemicals can make children ill, and in-utero exposure can lead to a condition called "worm heart," which requires surviving infants to have major surgery.

The drug also causes environmental problems derived from its distinctive, homegrown manufacturing process. It can be cooked in car trunks, homes, hotels, fish houses and farm fields, and making a pound of meth creates five to seven pounds of hazardous waste that cookers must dump somewhere. Polluted sites may require costly cleanup, or remediation, to be safely returned to their original use.

Each polluted site — and Minnesota is home to thousands, experts say — could be considered the environmental equivalent of an old gas station. Volunteer roadside cleanup crews find remnants of meth-making, such as cold-medicine boxes and empty plastic buckets. Officials warn people how to spot icehouse labs, from which waste may be dumped right into a lake.

Deborah Durkin, an environmental scientist with the Minnesota Health Department's meth lab program, travels the state to teach about the drug. She often finds herself in rooms filled with worried police, teachers, social workers and, inevitably, grieving families.

"This isn't like anything else we've seen. This is costing us more societally and economically than any other drug phenomenon," Durkin said.

SPREAD OF THE DRUG

Meth was smuggled from Taiwan and South Korea into Hawaii in the 1980s. By 1990, its presence had grown in the U.S. mainland, according to the Koch Crime Institute, a national organization aimed at understanding the causes of crime.

It has long been reported as the dominant drug problem in the San Diego area and has spread across the west and southwest. About 8.8 million people, 4 percent of the U.S. population, reported having tried meth in a survey in 2000, according to the National Institute of Drug Abuse.

It's hard to say when meth entered Minnesota, but Mille Lacs County Undersheriff Alan Marxhausen says he tracked the emergence of labs in central Minnesota in the mid-1990s to an individual who was a meth cooker from Washington state.

The man was advanced a plane ticket against his future earnings to come and set up operations near Princeton, Minn.

Minnesota's meth today comes from local cookers as well as interstate drug runners. About 80 percent is imported from "superlabs," many of which are in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and Mexico, said Peterson, the Martin County investigator, who also serves on the Minnesota River Valley Drug Task Force in southern Minnesota.

Bags of meth are often tucked into cars cruising into the state on Interstate 90 or Interstate 35. They may be packed with peppercorns to mask the strong chemical smell.

Meth labs hit rural areas first because it's easier to obtain farm fertilizer and distant neighbors are less likely to smell the odor, described as similar to cat urine. But the number of labs is growing steadily, even in urban areas. In recent years, Minneapolis police have found labs in Uptown and on the North Side. Washington County authorities took down a lab in a middle-class neighborhood in Oakdale in 2003.

Motorcycle gangs once dominated distribution, and users were characterized as blue-collar workers.

Both trends are changing. Meth is now being reported in Minnesota schools and on its Indian reservations, and a broad cross-section of people use it.

EXPENSIVE INCARCERATION

Meth offenders are driving up prison populations significantly, the Minnesota Sentencing Guidelines Commission found, contributing to increased bricks-and-mortar costs for taxpayers.

Gov. Tim Pawlenty has asked the Legislature to consider spending $74.9 million to expand the Faribault prison, and corrections officials hope for a second phase that would bring the bill to about $100 million.

Taxpayers are also on the hook for longer stays for addicts in jail and, often, for their subsequent medical care.

For example, dentists yanked 43 meth-rotted teeth last year from the mouths of inmates at the Pine County Jail, causing officials to switch dentists to save $23 a tooth.

"It's not like one or two. We're talking most of an inmate's teeth," jail administrator Rick Boland said.

The Pine County Jail spent $132,974 on meth-related costs in 2003, an estimate Sheriff Mark Mansavage called conservative. Some factors: Judges keep bails high so addicts don't leave jail to cook again, which means longer jail stays. And the long prison sentences for such crimes mean inmates often fight in court instead of pleading guilty, he said.

To grasp the frustrations of paying for the cost of addiction, visit Sheriff Schulz's office in the Kanabec County Courthouse. He'll show you the blister-pack pills used for inmates' prescription medicines.

The single-use packages let him return unused medicines for refunds. The sheriff doesn't yet know how much money he'll save, but it's not enough: Although the county allotted the jail $25,000 last year for medicine, he spent $47,809.

"It's primarily methamphetamine-related costs," Schulz said, adding that addicted inmates often need anti-depressant and anti-psychotic medication. His small jail holds about 22 inmates; he houses another 35 elsewhere. Schultz said about 70 percent of those inmates use meth, a figure consistent with the estimates of some other outstate sheriffs.

Alan Peterson, the Kanabec County coordinator, said the $47,809 figure was a huge hit to take in a budget where savings come in hundred-dollar increments.

County residents have made it clear they'd like better funding for extension services and children's 4-H programs, Peterson said, but "instead of taking care of our kids, we're taking care of the medical expenses of meth users."

In Alexandria, Lt. Bill McKay, assistant jail administrator, often has to separate meth users from other inmates because of their hallucinations. "One of them was seeing Janet Reno all the time," McKay said.

Douglas County learned a financial lesson when a home lab exploded in Alexandria this past July. Two suspects who were burned in the fire were jailed, McKay said.

In an unusual decision, those suspects were released before trial, "mainly because their medical bills would have been extremely expensive," McKay said.

"We would have had to pay for it and tried to get the money back from them. Whereas when they were released, they were covered under their dad's insurance."

While individual counties are seeing direct impact, state prisons are also burdened.

Nanette Schroeder, health services director for the Minnesota Corrections Department, said because many inmates who do meth also smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, it's difficult to specify which health needs are driven by meth use.

But she is sure that meth-related illnesses are driving up health costs in prison, where offenders pay only a $3 copay when they seek an appointment and the state is responsible for the rest.

Those costs will increase as more meth offenders reach prison, and the percentages are jumping.

In 1996, 48 percent of drug offenders sentenced to prison were there because of cocaine, compared with 14 percent for all amphetamines.

Cocaine claimed 40 percent of all cases in 2002, but methamphetamine/amphetamine offend-ers had grown to 38 percent, according to the state sentencing guidelines commission.

Schulz sees the toll.

"Are there a lot of psychological medications because of this drug? Yes," he said.

"Is the United States in a lot of trouble down the road because of this drug? Yeah, probably. We don't know what will happen 10 years from now. It's wrecking a lot of good people."

STEEP PRICE FOR KIDS

Authorities estimate they find children at more than 30 percent of Minnesota meth labs.

Those children must be checked for heavy metals, meth, physical or sexual abuse, leading to clinic visits costing $175-$230 apiece and sometimes emergency room visits of $1,500, according to Olmsted County public health data.

Even if a child is healthy, protective custody costs add up.

Dan Papin, director of Washington County Community Services, offers an example of a methamphetamine case involving the parent of three children younger than 8. It would cost the county about $28,000 in staff time, therapy and placement costs, Papin said, calling those figures conservative.

Washington County had 427 assessments for children's services in 2003, and about 225 involved meth use by the parent or a child as young as 14, said Tammy Kincaid, children's services intake and assessment supervisor.

"People often choose the meth over their kids," Kincaid said.

Timothy Hofmann, 39, from North Minneapolis, said his addiction to the drug made parenting impossible. When meth takes hold, "it's got you 100 percent," he said. "When you wake up, the first thing on your mind is not your kids, it's the drugs."

At the end of January, a 9-month-old girl was left in a 17-degree apartment in Ashby, Minn., tears frozen on her cheeks. The baby's mother told police she had taken meth and left her baby to flee people who were out to get her.

That infant joined a growing group of Minnesota children who risk being permanently placed away from their parents because of meth.

The trend is stark, according to a December 2003 report by the Center for Advanced Studies in Child Welfare at the University of Minnesota. Out-of-home placements due to parental chemical abuse increased 82.3 percent in greater Minnesota counties from 2000 to 2002. By contrast, placements statewide declined during the same period.

The study tracked parental drug abuse in general, not meth in particular, but it found a correlation between out-of-home placements due to parent drug use and the number of reported meth labs seized in the county.

And kids who are temporarily removed from home due to parental drug abuse may never live with mom and dad again, the study found. In cases that don't involve drugs, the vast majority of children eventually may return to parents.

Pat Hass, Pine County's health and human services director, summed up the impact of meth addiction on families:

"You have a rigid, colicky baby with medical issues in a household where parents are using methamphetamine and are paranoid and even irrational. What kind of a combination is that?" Hass asked. "I'm concerned about losing more than one generation. I'm afraid of losing two."

THE TOLL ON ADDICTS

It only took one hit to hijack Ralph Larson's life, which experts say is one of the troubling aspects of meth addiction.

Larson was in downtown St. Paul in 1996 when some people offered him a yellowish powder called meth.

"I tried a line and it felt like my nose was going to burn off my face, but the effect of this drug … it gave me a boost and I mean a boost!" wrote Larson, 40, of Lake Elmo, in a letter about his addiction.

"I partied all night," he said, and his monthly use doubled by early 1997. "Within a short period of time I had to have this drug just to function like normal people do."

He once stayed awake for 10 days in a row, taking hits as he tired. Nine of his teeth rotted and had to be pulled. He hallucinated, seeing "shadow people" lurking along the edge of his vision.

"The effects are devastating," Larson said.

"You're not human when you're doing meth because all you care about is getting high," he said. "I've seen people peel their face off while high … They would look in the mirror and keep scratching and opening up facial wounds."

Larson and three other former dealers sat in a sparse conference room in the Douglas County Jail annex on a snowy January day, describing their addictions to meth. The drug landed all of them in Alexandria, where they build homes and pray to God to stay clean.

Dan O'Neill, of St. Paul, who has been clean since 1999, worries that meth has "scattered" his brain.

"Look where it's got me. I've never seen a successful meth user yet," he said.

Yet the men say they are turning their lives around.

Hofmann, the former addict from North Minneapolis, used to do so much meth, he said at one point he saw it come out of his skin.

"I've seen crystals on myself, like a little snowflake that comes through my pores," he said. He remembers thinking, "Whoa! Dope's coming out of my skin!"

A health department official said such stories likely result from skin loss due to damaged blood vessels.

Hofmann sees life differently these days. He has been drug-free for more than three years, and eagerly showed a visitor pictures of the affordable homes built through the state prison system's Institution Community Work Crew program.

"Look at all these houses we built," Hofmann said. "I'm damned proud of that."

FINDING RESOURCES TO FIGHT METH

Because addicts are paranoid and labs are often booby-trapped, arresting addicts is dangerous, and a lack of funding makes it harder for police to do their jobs safely.

Cops trained to bust meth labs have stopped at a central Minnesota McDonald's for free straws because they lacked money for pipettes to collect samples, said Paul Stevens, the BCA special agent.

Pine County Sheriff Mark Mansavage combs for grants to boost his budget, a practice he says is increasingly important in "the war on meth." His office received a $20,000 grant for homeland security and drug inquiries that will mean more masks, vests, weapons and barricades for his emergency response team.

"The ones we go up against will match up or outdo us for weapons," Mansavage said. "They're getting more professional, bringing in body guards, booby traps."

Authorities say there are far more labs than there are resources to bust them.

Stevens, co-director of the Midwest Governors Conference on Methamphetamine, begged a state lawmaker last January for $600,000 to outfit officers short-term. There are no funding streams for safety clothes, filters, gloves, boots and chemical suits, he said.

"Some of these guys are using (single-use) suits three or four times," he said. "It's like sending a fireman to a fire without a helmet, jacket or gloves."

Even when materials are available, manpower can be scarce. Cooperation among agencies is high, many in law enforcement said, but tough decisions must be made about using those resources.

Schulz, the Kanabec County sheriff, has six patrol officers and one investigator, so he is pragmatic about the 30 labs believed to operate in his county. He relies on a dangerous but effective tactic: He grabs Investigator Brian Smith and they head out for "knock-and-talks." The two show up at suspected labs and warn people to shut down, leave or prepare to be arrested.

Stevens called the "knock-and-talk" method dangerous, but added: "It works. These people are so paranoid it's one way to drive them out. The trouble is, all it does is move them on to another town."

Preventive action can ease more than the drug caseload, Smith said.

Meth use is linked to other crimes, from identity theft and check forgeries to burglaries, which further strains agencies. Smith said that 75 percent of his overall caseload is related to meth use, as are 95 percent of his burglaries.

As tactics to fight methamphetamine evolve, so do the tactics to create the drug.

Mansavage, the Pine County sheriff, learned this month that cookers are using two new products to obtain meth ingredients: salt blocks with ephedrine intended for sick farm animals, and power pole transformers, which can be cannibalized for a chemical replacement for anhydrous ammonia.

"Power outages are going to have to be investigated as possible meth activity," Mansavage said. "There's no end to it."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: addiction; meth; substanceabuse; wod
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To: Kozak
What is an ED physician?
141 posted on 02/24/2004 9:21:15 AM PST by small_l_libertarian
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To: Lazamataz
It also sounds like a good way to get premature Alzheimers. Talk about punishment fitting the crime.
142 posted on 02/24/2004 9:40:01 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Vigilantcitizen
Legal Meth is still in existance and is fed to our children, mostly male children, in unimaginable quantities.

Ritalin and other ADHD medicines are very, very similar to the homebrew versions sold on the street - just cleaner
143 posted on 02/24/2004 9:45:03 AM PST by Outlaw76 (Citizens on the Bounce!)
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To: dennisw
"Same as person on Atkins keeps no ice cream or cookies in the house. "

LOL! I sometimes wish that was possible. As an Atkins dieter and father of 3 I am often tempted by the snacks and foods my kids get to eat. This morning it was those little doughnuts covered with confectionary sugar that made me slap my stomach to prove that though the battle isn't over, the front has moved back significantly.

144 posted on 02/24/2004 9:50:55 AM PST by Outlaw76 (Citizens on the Bounce!)
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To: NWOBLOWS
"I reluctantly think we still need to wait for the drug-user to harm someone other than himself, just as we do, or should do, with other crimes. Preemptive arrest sure seems like a steep slippery slope into a police state which, by the way, is coming. Thanks largely to the do-gooders of the WoD."

Do you believe in arresting people for driving while intoxicated, firing guns in crowded residential neighborhoods, or possessing nuclear weapons? Obviously the government does not wait and should not wait before people engaged in all sorts of dangerous and unjustifiable conduct hurt someone before these people are arrested. It is a slippery slope though. You are right about that. It's hard to have a bright-line rule for when conduct is too risky or dangerous for society.

In my opinion I think that in a free society people should have the right to do whatever they want to do as long as they don't hurt other people or create a substantial and unjustifiable risk of significant harm to others. For instance, knocking the stuffing out of someone out on the street would usually not be justifiable, doing it on the field in a football game would be because it is sanctioned, consensual conduct. Driving while intoxicated is considered by a majority of people to be unjustifiable and too risky to condone. Many people, myself included, also feel that way about using drugs like meth and heroin. The risk of addiction leading to substantial problems for those around the addict and society in general is too high.

I do believe that punishments should fit crimes and should be similar for similarly risky or harmful conduct. I can't see how just using or possessing a small amount of any drug is worse than something like driving drunk, for instance, so I think it is wrong to give people felony records and send them to prison and so on for nothing other than using or possessing a drug society doesn't approve of.
145 posted on 02/24/2004 10:14:55 AM PST by TKDietz
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To: Beelzebubba
Profit motive.
My concern is the young urban poor kids who get sucked into selling this, and may or may not use it, because of the money involved.
Until you take the profit out of it, you will never solve the problem. Demand will be there, but suppliers would dry up.
146 posted on 02/24/2004 10:18:56 AM PST by mabelkitty (If Kerry is so "electable", then why are Democrats afraid of Nader?)
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To: mabelkitty
My concern is the young urban poor kids who get sucked into selling this, and may or may not use it, because of the money involved.


If it were legalized, don't you think that the distribution channels might opt for the services of people other than desparate urban youth with nothing to lose?
147 posted on 02/24/2004 10:52:01 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: mabelkitty
"Demand will be there, but suppliers would dry up."

No way. As long as there is sufficient demand, it will be met. If prices go down and it puts many suppliers out of business, then the few remaining suppliers will sell more product with smaller profit margins but still make a healthy profit because of the higher quantities sold.
148 posted on 02/24/2004 11:22:02 AM PST by TKDietz
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To: sarcasm
Meth is not that bad, I hate speling and sciense worse.
149 posted on 02/24/2004 11:24:38 AM PST by Bluntpoint
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To: Beelzebubba
"That's all true, but the real question is whether legalizing these poisons would cause more people to take them. Would you start up a habit because it was legal?

And even if there were a slightly increased usage rate by free adults, don't you think that the added societal costs of these users would be more than offset by the benefits to our liberties and pocketbooks by ending the War On (some) Drugs?"

I agree that if the increase would only be slight then it's silly not to legalize. But would the increase only be slight? I am not convinced of that. Let's say for instance that cocaine was legalized and adults could pick it up $5 a gram at the corner convenience store. Now, cocaine is pretty fun stuff and I would imagine that substantial numbers of the 32,000,000 or so people in this country who have tried it but don't do it anymore would find the temptation too great. They'd feel compelled to pick up a gram when they buy that twelve pack of beer on Friday night. You'd also start seeing people picking up a gram in the morning to kick start the work day. People who have used it in the past and new folks alike would be interested in dirt cheap cocaine that they could just pick up at the store.

As of 2002 the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration estimated from their National Survey on Drug Use & Health that less than two million Americans over the age of 18 used cocaine in the month before the survey. According to the survey that was less than 1% of our 18 and older population. I'd bet big bucks we'd see substantially higher than 1% using coke if it was selling for $5.00 a gram at convenience stores. And the more people who use it, the more who will develop hardcore addictions.
150 posted on 02/24/2004 11:39:58 AM PST by TKDietz
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To: TKDietz
You'd also start seeing people picking up a gram in the morning to kick start the work day.


Sounds like caffeine and cocaine have more in common than being traditional Coca-Cola ingredients.

Incidentally, back when it WAS legal, do you recall the usage rate? It would seem that making it illegal has done more for the allure of drugs than anything else.
151 posted on 02/24/2004 1:54:58 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: dirtboy
I've been following this thread the last couple days. Looks like a couple here have had personal experience with the stuff, and some others have close relationships with current & former users. I fall into the latter category.

We have two high school age girls at our house because their mother is on the stuff, and just too tweaked out and paranoid to deal with them anymore. She left them with us a few years ago and they are away from the fear and neglect that they suffered in their earlier years, and that's good. They still go visit their mom and get along with her for short periods, but she and they know they couldn't live together full time (at least she is sane enough to realize that, but not sane enough to give up making the most flimsy rationalizations for why she keeps doing the stuff).

If you look at the series of pictures of the woman upthread, you will see the girls' mother in spades. That's exactly what it did to her, she's been on it for about 20 years, her face is distorted in the same way, her teeth are gone, and she has the temperament to match the pictures. She's about 43 years old now, so she has just a few years left.

A younger coworker recently had to put his mother, about 50 years old, into a nursing home for the rest of her life, because she was doing the combination of meth and crack. Health problems related to her drug use started taking their toll years earlier, but she eventually had a stroke that left her paralyzed and unable to speak, and she's not likely to get better.

Both of these women have had brushes with the law over their drug use. The girls' mom was found walking down the middle of the highway in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, because she had parked her car by the side of the road and ripped apart it's wiring, convinced that it had been bugged (and yes, she had dismantled VCRs for the same reason). She was hauled in for DUII, had fines and rehab imposed and cheated her way through, none of it did any good.

The coworker's mother had a string of convictions for possession and related things like burglaries, and had done some prison time as well, and none of that did any good.

I don't know what the answer is, meth is old news in the rural areas of the west coast, and if there was an answer, it seems like we'd have it here. But the traditional methods we are using, letting the law impose the sanctions that are currently prescribed haven't touched it. The key is to get people to just not use the stuff in the first place, but how? Public skools aren't getting the message across, that's for sure. I don't know if they are showing the pictures, but they need to be showing them, and telling some of those life stories, this stuff is severely crippling, physically, mentally, and socially.

And the violence is there, the girls' mom had close ties to some of the people involved in a particularly grisly murder that played out in their hometown a few years back. That was, in fact, what triggered the paranoia that started with the dismantling of the home electronics and graduated to dismantling the car that night she got picked up. Her and her boyfriend (actually now married) have had numerous physical fights over the years, and they have the scars to prove it, along with those pesky domestic violence convictions now that forever keep them from owning gunz (maybe a good thing in their case but there's plenty of room to argue that it isn't in general).

Now I'm a libertarian sort, I think that in general, with regard to the war on drugs, the cure is worse than the disease, but this meth is as nasty as they say, some of the newcomers out in the heartland haven't seen anything yet, and there's no propaganda here, plenty of us real folks have seen and experienced the reality. I didn't always, but I do now advocate pot legalization, and would maybe even look at some of the other stuff out there (about which I admittedly know less), but I don't think meth should be legalized or decriminalized. The law is going to have to deal with the violent and neglectful among it's users, and hopefully education and science with save the others before they get to that point < /my .02 >.

Dave in Eugene

152 posted on 02/24/2004 8:33:31 PM PST by Clinging Bitterly (President Bush sends his regards.)
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To: TKDietz
We need to be educating people, finding out who the addicts are, getting them clean and teaching them how to stay clean.

Who has to pay to rehab the addicts? The working, taxpayer types? Or would the addict at least pay their own rehab? Some addicts have too high a failure rate --- something like 90% for meth addicts --- it's too futile, too expensive to teach them --- they aren't teachable.

153 posted on 02/25/2004 5:33:16 AM PST by FITZ
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To: TKDietz
I've known cocaine and alcohol addicts who were only able to start their rehab after going to jail --- it gave them a time out on their drug, allowed their minds to clear for once and think about rehab --- plus the fear of being locked up without the drug seemed to motivate them to clean up --- and none had signed up for a voluntary program until there was jail time. It seemed like they must have thought if they keep on the way they were going they were going to be locked up without their fix -- and being locked up is horrible so they might as well try to get some control.
154 posted on 02/25/2004 5:37:46 AM PST by FITZ
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To: Dave in Eugene of all places
I don't know what the answer is, meth is old news in the rural areas of the west coast, and if there was an answer, it seems like we'd have it here. But the traditional methods we are using, letting the law impose the sanctions that are currently prescribed haven't touched it. The key is to get people to just not use the stuff in the first place, but how?

Around here the drug of choice seems to be silver aerosol paint --- the hardware stores lock up the spray paint and you have to be over 18 or 21 to buy it. Sometimes there doesn't seem to be a good answer --- maybe some people are just doomed to self-destruct. It's like they want a slow suicide.

155 posted on 02/25/2004 5:42:13 AM PST by FITZ
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To: small_l_libertarian
What is an ED physician?

I work in an Emergency Department, also known as the ER.
156 posted on 02/25/2004 9:14:00 AM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: dennisw
If your solution to the drug war and our problem with methamphetamines is to kill dealers because that will stop the desire of people to do meth, let me offer you some advice.

1- please take a simple class in economics. Supply depends on demand, without a demand the supply will dry up, and if there is a demand there will always be people to supply. This is a fact of life and killing people won't change this simple economic law.

2- please take a history class, because we have been attacking the war on drugs from the supply side for about 30 years now and the problem keeps getting worse.

3- get some common sense because you seem to want to repeat failed policies over and over again, that's called idiocy.

Meth is dangerous, and there are solutions, but not the same "solutions" we have been trying for years which have only made the problem worse.
157 posted on 02/25/2004 11:25:44 AM PST by bc2 (http://thinkforyourself.us)
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To: macrahanish #1
So true -- If you tell (many) kids they'll get cancer, heart disease, or brain damage they'll look at you like you're nuts. But if you tell them their appearance will be destroyed and no one will be attracted to them anymore, or better yet show them a series of pictures like the ones above, you'll suddenly have their attention.
158 posted on 02/25/2004 11:30:15 AM PST by Mr. Mojo
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Comment #159 Removed by Moderator

To: bc2
1- please take a simple class in economics. Supply depends on demand, without a demand the supply will dry up, and if there is a demand there will always be people to supply. This is a fact of life and killing people won't change this simple economic law.

Kill off the supply by killing off the suppliers. Trying and executing them. They are murderous scum and need to be dead. I'm not into "understanding" such scum, that's your department.

160 posted on 02/25/2004 2:23:22 PM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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