Posted on 02/19/2004 3:40:35 PM PST by missyme
By 'proof,' I think they're talking about non-Biblical proof. Whatever the Bible says is one thing, but there there does not seem to be independent proof that the crucifiction occurred as the Bible claims it did.
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." -- Psalms 22:16 which foretold the suffering of the Messiah.
"And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." -- John 19:37 pointing out how this prophecy was fulfilled. The prophecy was in Zechariah 12:10.
"Then saith he [Christ] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. " -- John 20:27 where Jesus is talking to Thomas (Doubting Tom) because Thomas did not believe that Jesus had rose from the dead.
So, Mr. Scholar, was Christ nailed to that cross or not?
That's the spirit!!! Rewrite the Bible to what we want it to say and our understanding. Heaven knows the disciples couldn't have actually seen what they wrote. Why? Because a 'scientist' told us so
John 20
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
But let's trust your reading and scientists over the Word of God Almighty. Right.....
Ready, set, GO! - eh?
This is wrong. The stipes (uprights) were reused... often. Executions were sometimes weekly and sometimes daily... and the stipes were kept in place. The condemned was nailed or tied to the patibulum (the cross piece) and then lifted onto the stipes. The bodies were taken down and tossed into a pit so the crosses could be reused.
The error that Mel makes is in having Jesus carry the entire cross, stipes and patibulum. Most likely the condemned men carried only the patibulum.
The latest research using cadavers shows that each nail in the palm COULD actually support better than 60% of the body's weight. Given that the feet were also nailed, the likelyhood of pulling through the palm is small.
However, a professional executioner would not want even that small a chance of error. There is, however a solution that is much more logical than the nail through the wrist.
The original work done by Dr. Pierre Barbet concluded that the nails could only have gone through the wrists, specifically through the Space of Destot, is wrong. He used cadavers that had been dead for some time and suspended the body's entire weight on one hand.
It was Barbet who proposed the "nail through the wrist" scenario because the wrist wound seen on the Shroud of Turin showed an exit in the back of the wrist. Barbet erroneously claimed that the Space of Destot is only one pathway through the carpals that would allow the nail to penetrate without breaking a bone. One slight problem... the Space of Destot would not have a nail exit the wrist where the wound on the Shroud shows it. He claimed also that the proof of his hypothesis was the lack of thumb images on the Shroud, explaining that a nail driven through the Space of Destot would strike or sever the median nerve, paralyzing the thumbs and forcing them to curl into the palms. Another small problem: the median nerve is nowhere near the Space of Destot and a nail driven there would not come close to doing what Barbet hypothesized.
Dr. Frederick T. Zugibe, M.S., M.D., Ph.D., FCAP, FACC, FAAFS, has proposed another method that meets both the iconographic, traditional palm placement of the nail entry wound, the exit wound shown on the Shroud of Turin, and the strength of the wrist bones needed to keep the crucified pinned to the cross.
This alternative pathway actually starts IN THE PALM and exits exactly where the wrist wound is located on the image on the Shroud of Turin. The starting place on the palm for this pathway is really easy to find: hold your palm facing your face and fold your thumb toward the center of your palm. This forms a valley . Place your finger at the base of the valley and you'll feel an indentation. Place a nail point there and drive it in angled toward the back of the wrist (about 45 degrees) and it will slide through the carpals and exit in the back of the wrist, exactly where the wound is shown on the Shroud.
This nailing position actually makes it EASIER for the nail driver to accurately nail through the tough bones of the hand and wrist. If the executioner lays the intended victim on the ground the hand falls naturally into this position if the elbow is on the ground and the back of the hand is pressed backwards onto a patibulum that is several inches thick... the angle of driving the nail is then perfectly straight, perpendicular to the wood. Expert crucifixionists would know of this and use it.
Incidentally, Dr. Zugibe, through the use of volunteer LIVING subjects, has proven that crucifiction does not kill through asphyxiation as has been long thought (again, due to the work of Pierre Barbet) but rather by hypovolemic and traumatic shock.
John Dominic Crossen does NOT believe that Jesus was resurrected. He is one of the "scholars" who are picking and choosing which quotations of Jesus' are things Jesus actually said... or things somebody else said and put in his mouth.
He believes that Jesus resurrection was completely fabricated or he was resurrected only in the memories of his followers.
In Anglicized spelling of the greek:
ceir
cheir
khire
Definition from Strongs: perhaps from the base of ceimwn - cheimon 5494 in the sense of its congener the base of casma - chasma 5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively (power); especially (by Hebraism) a means or instrument):--hand.
Sorry, but the sedile IS the footrest, if it could be called that. It actually was a piece of wood that made it easier to nail the feet to the cross. It was sometimes used, especially on stipes that were permanent.
There is another picture of thumb side of a cadaver's hand with a very large needle inserted through this space and it exits exactly where the wound on the Shroud shows it did. I have not posted it because it is very graphic and is not suitable for a family site.
The entire peer reviewed paper is available here e-Forensicmedicine.net
Sorry but the footrest was called the suppedaneum. The projecting peg is still the sedile. - Tom
I was searching for the correct response and there in the second post I found you had already made it!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.