Irreducible Complexity is an Obstacle to Darwinism Even if Parts of a System have other Functions

Discovery Institute ^ | February 18, 2004 | Michael J. Behe

[balrog666]

Nice post, Ichneumon! I don't know where you get such patience.

Anyway, here's a petard for Mr. LLLICHY:

Petard!

[Lurking Libertarian]

Ichneumon's post #80 on this thread is a simply brilliant combination of scientific erudition and rhetorical skill. Kudos.

[VadeRetro]

Selective amnesia, or intellectual dishonesty?

The creationists vary in every other degree but they all leave you asking this question.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Nice!

[PatrickHenry]

[Thunderous applause!]

[Ahban]

It's clear that you went to a lot of trouble, but not clear that Behe's two statements contradict each other. Your post is lengthy, but incorrect. Here is what you state are contradictory claims....

Claim A: "An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly by numerous, successive, slight modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional. ... Since natural selection can only choose systems that are already working, then if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to arise as an integrated unit, in one fell swoop, for natural selection to have anything to act on."

Claim B: "The system can have its own function, different from any of the parts. Any individual function of a part does not explain the separate function of the system."

The first quote merely refers to a precursor system that SERVES THE SAME FUNCTION. It does not mean that the parts of a system can't have some function IN ANOTHER SYSTEM. In the article he gives a quote from his original work, "Darwin's Black Box" that refutes the idea he is moving the bar on this.

You can't have a mousetrap that lacks a spring. That is not the same as saying a spring can't be used for other things. All of the parts used for a moustrap could be used for something else, but no precursor MOUSETRAP system could funcion without all of those parts of the system in place.

[AndrewC]

It's clear I'm the great white whale to Ichneumon. I smile at that. He deserves no reply so I shall not, but I will remind him, since I am his obsession and he will read this---

"I have no intention of wasting my time researching your little feud. If someone asks you to stop posting to him, stop posting. This is not complicated." --- Jim Robinson

[VadeRetro]

You can't have a mousetrap that lacks a spring.

Many animal traps use a gravity-powered door. A spring can be used for other things, and there are other ways to catch a mouse.

[js1138]

Come off it. You can tell someone to stop posting to you, but if you publish opinions on a public forum you cannot expect that your opinions will not be analyzed.

[VadeRetro]

Give a creo a "Get Out of Jail Free" card and it will be used until the edges are as frayed and soft as cotton.

[AndrewC]

Come off it. You can tell someone to stop posting to you, but if you publish opinions on a public forum you cannot expect that your opinions will not be analyzed.

Come off what? I told a poster who was itching for a confrontation to lay off. He refused to do so. It finally took Jim Robinson himself to relay the easily understood request and achieve the cooperation of that person. Has that person been denied anything apart from addressing me directly. Has his posting been any less? I've not stopped him from posting what he likes to others. I merely commented that I am evidently an obsession to him since I have not addressed him and he has entered into the discussions I have had with others. By the way, is the question I posed to you so difficult to answer?

[RightWingNilla]

How would you do original ID research?

You just kinda sit around at your desk muttering about "Darwinists" under your breath.

[balrog666]

[js1138]

If you want private conversations, take it to freepmail. This is a forum. If you post ideas they will be subject to criticism. If you choose not to respond that's your problem. Why are you on a public forum?

As for people being obsesssed with you, why don't you take that as a positive? You are the most articulate poster for your side of the debate. What mystery is there that you would be a target?

[AndrewC]

Why did you post your baby picture? You were kinda cute, but what happened to you since?

Balrog as he now appears--->

[nmh]

I always get a healthy chuckle seeing evolutionists insisting that a round peg fits nicely in a square peg. Evolution doesn't add up and it never will no matter how one tries to contrive the sitution since evidence does not support evolution.

[betty boop]

More desperate dishonesty from the creationoids.

Well, my very dear balgog666, you are to be congratulated for your early display of sympathetic enthusiasm for the civilized and well-reasoned exchange of ideas -- this naturally human (and verifiably historical) endeavor designed to advance knowledge and understanding for public and private gain.

Of course I'm sure you already know that, in truth, you turned this thread into an Animal-House-style "food fight" right at Reply #2. Or at least made a sincere attempt.

I'm just catching up, and maybe never will. So don't know whether your wish came true or not.

[AndrewC]

As for people being obsesssed with you, why don't you take that as a positive?

You must have difficulty recognizing patronizing and belittling posts.

[Ahban]

My favorite crumedgeon-opponent! How are you guy? I hope your organs are not still making your life a burden? Just live another ten years, and we will get a fix for just about anything- except hard headedness!

All your point in the last post are true, but not terribly relevant to the discussion. A mousetrap that is NOT IC can be imagined, but that is not what we have meant by "mousetrap" on this thread. I use the term according to standard useage for a specific mousetrap type, not a guy standing over a mousehole with a large cinder block or any other abstraction!

[Ahban]

I'll call you Ishmael! Personal insult, as usual, seems to be the evos strongest "argument".