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To: Dr. Frank fan
I'm talking about the Sanhedrin. Had they not asked Pilot to crucify Jesus? Were they not Jews?

Again, it's nobody's fault but God did "use" the Jews to get it done. And he used Judas and he used Pilot. None of them had a say in the matter. Had I been there I'd have been calling for Jesus to be crucified. And I'm glad he was. Christ had made my life a lot better! So, maybe the Christian world should be thanking the Jews. They gave us Jesus of Nazareth and they gave us our Saviour.
135 posted on 02/15/2004 11:46:01 PM PST by Terry Mross
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To: Terry Mross; Dr. Frank fan
I'm talking about the Sanhedrin. Had they not asked Pilot to crucify Jesus? Were they not Jews?

The Sanhedrin was: a) not unified on this matter; and b) not composed of ALL Jews. For you to say "the Jews" did anything is a complete misrepresentation of history, as well as a way of blaming all Jews of subsequent generations - whether that is your intention or not. Even if YOU don't blame anyone other than those who actually took part, such a blanket statement only gives aid and comfort to those hateful individuals that DO. Dr. Frank fan is 100% correct in this matter - maybe you ought to re-read his post #132 again.

Again, it's nobody's fault but God did "use" the Jews to get it done. And he used Judas and he used Pilot. None of them had a say in the matter.

What you say is: a) Your opinion, not backed up by a shred of historically proveable fact;

b) even IF true, a it is a reference to people who lived and died roughly 2,000 years ago - that's about 80 generations. I think it completely immoral and improper to blame any person for what their parents did - but your statement implies quite strongly that people can be blamed for what a small portion of their ancestors ALLEGEDLY did some 80 generations ago. You really need to reconsider the logic and the morality of your position;

c) directly contrary to the concept of Free Will. If we are but puppets on strings, existing only for G-d to play with for His amusement, then there is no point whatsoever to existence. Our existence only has a point if we are - each and every one of us - able to choose between Good and Evil...and not just once or twice in a lifetime, but constantly. Since G-d does NOTHING that is pointless, there MUST be Free Will. The lack of Free Will that you seem to think exists would justify every murder, rape, genocide or other act of evil as "G-d's will." That is a concept that any moral person with half an ounce of sense would utterly reject. IF Judas and Pilot did exactly what they are reported to have done, then it was THEIR choice...and the blood they spilled would have been on THEIR hands, and THEIRS ALONE.

138 posted on 02/16/2004 8:11:17 AM PST by Ancesthntr
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To: Terry Mross
I'm talking about the Sanhedrin. Had they not asked Pilot to crucify Jesus? Were they not Jews?

Yes they did (or at least, a majority of them, or something like that). Yes they were the historical analogue of what we today call Jews.

I thought you had been implying that the(se same) Jewish leaders were all "there" that day (some time later, Jesus already in custody) when Pilate asked some mob of people whether he should spare Jesus or some other guy, a "thief" called "Jesus Barabbas". Again: I see no reason to believe that they (the Sanhedrin) were there (in that crowd). They had already decided to turn Jesus over to Pilate (like, the previous day perhaps?) and now Jesus was in Roman custody. By the time of the "Barabbas" question most Sanhedrin were probably home relaxing or whatever.

This stuff didn't all happen simultaneously.

Again, it's nobody's fault but God did "use" the Jews to get it done.

No, God used some Jews (if that's what you believe). Not "The Jews".

So, maybe the Christian world should be thanking the Jews. They gave us Jesus of Nazareth and they gave us our Saviour.

In the sense of the cultural legacy they passed on to "the Christian world", there's no "maybe" about it: without Judaism there'd have been no Christianity. Yes Christians should "thank" "the Jews", I suppose.

But not because "they" got Jesus killed. "They" didn't. At most, some of them did!

141 posted on 02/16/2004 8:28:16 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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